Megalithic and Prehistoric Sites

[Artaxerxes]

World’s oldest family tree revealed in 5,700-year-old Cotswolds tomb

DNA analysis of bodies in Hazleton North long cairn finds five generations of an extended family

www.theguardian.com

I take from this that the culture of the time is
patriarchal
hierarchical
aristocratic (proto)
polygamous, for 'kings'/chieftains and the like

right?

Kind of? The maternal groupings suggest an awareness of respect for motherhood. From the sounds of this and other burials women moved around a lot which suggests some interesting things.

A high-resolution picture of kinship practices in an Early Neolithic tomb - Nature

Archaeological and ancient DNA analyses of 35 individuals entombed at Hazleton North long cairn approximately 5,700 years ago are used to reconstruct kinship practices in Early Neolithic Britain.

www.nature.com

The presence of women who had reproduced with lineage men and the absence of adult lineage daughters suggest virilocal burial and female exogamy. We demonstrate that one male progenitor reproduced with four women: the descendants of two of those women were buried in the same half of the tomb over all generations. This suggests that maternal sub-lineages were grouped into branches whose distinctiveness was recognized during the construction of the tomb. Four men descended from non-lineage fathers and mothers who also reproduced with lineage male individuals, suggesting that some men adopted the children of their reproductive partners by other men into their patriline. Eight individuals were not close biological relatives of the main lineage, raising the possibility that kinship also encompassed social bonds independent of biological relatedness..

 

[Casaubon]

My mum was from Kilclooney, Donegal.
It’s a lovely part of the world, if you don’t dwell on the appalling poverty that drove her to work in London as a 16-year-old Gaelic speaker, in December 1939.

We spent many lovely summers there when I was a kid in the 60s and early 70s. A focus of the village was the large Catholic church, at which attendance was compulsory on Sundays.

I went back for a visit a few years ago. A couple of hundred metres behind the church I found the Kilclooney Dolmen, 'one of the finest in Ireland' .



Despite the all the time I’d spent in the area I’d never heard of it. If I’d known about it as a kid I’d have been literally all over it.

When I got home I asked family members if anyone remembered or knew about the dolmen, and they all looked at me as though I were mad. Recently I was at a funeral attended by a lot of Anglo-Irish family, and none of them had a clue what I was talking about.

It seems that for a long time these pre-Christian memorials were allowed to slip from public consciousness. I spoke to a cousin who’s a priest and he (sort of) agreed that the church had historically and consciously fostered the obscurity of pagan vestiges.

Nowadays there’s a multi-million-euro visitor centre, funded by the EU, dispensing guided tours, cream teas and fridge magnets.

That might be a nice metaphor for Ireland’s development in the last 50 years.

 

[marty21]

I'm a big fan of Silbury Hill , stopped there on Saturday. I tend to stop there when I drive down to Bath from London . It's a journey I do a lot to see my family , so in normal times , at least 10 times a year , I get off the M4 at Hungerford and take the A4 the rest of the journey as it is a lovely drive.

 

[Thora]

I'm a big fan of Silbury Hill , stopped there on Saturday. I tend to stop there when I drive down to Bath from London . It's a journey I do a lot to see my family , so in normal times , at least 10 times a year , I get off the M4 at Hungerford and take the A4 the rest of the journey as it is a lovely drive.

You should let us know when you next come this way, we're only 15 minutes away.

 

[danny la rouge]

 

[ska invita]

readers of this thread may well enjoy this video



im too young to know who Jack Hargreaves was, but this was posted last week and has had 150,000 views already, which shows Jack was ahead of his time - a proto youtube creator!

fascinating film including stone circles and the like, but more generally is about reading and understanding the land

gold!!

 

[ska invita]

I was too tired to explain it last night but the main point he makes in the video above that i thought was interesting relates to the idea that britains "oldest road" - the ridgeway - runs along a chalk seam from the dorset coast to east anglia

The chalkline

best map I can find of the ridgeway in full - an approximation:

which in the south tends to be high ground too

his point was that in pre-roman times the chalk was naturally fairly clear of plants as the soil is shallow, whereas on either side of the chalk line was bog or impenetrable dense forest - the chalk basically created a natural path

when thinking about megalthic sites something i hadn't thought about was how many places in Britain were basically inaccessible. Salisbury plane for example could be well accessed by the ridgeway

 

[brogdale]

readers of this thread may well enjoy this video



im too young to know who Jack Hargreaves was, but this was posted last week and has had 150,000 views already, which shows Jack was ahead of his time - a proto youtube creator!

fascinating film including stone circles and the like, but more generally is about reading and understanding the land

gold!!

Ah...Jack Hargreaves; to those of us a little older...a stalwart of Southern Television as one of the "How' line-up and his own Friday tea-time show "Out of Town". The Fast Show writers obviously based 'Bob Fleming' & friends on Hargreaves' work.

 

[danny la rouge]

Ah...Jack Hargreaves; to those of us a little older...a stalwart of Southern Television as one of the "How' line-up and his own Friday tea-time show "Out of Town". The Fast Show writers obviously based 'Bob Fleming' & friends on Hargreaves' work.

How! I was wondering where I knew him from!

 

[brogdale]

How! I was wondering where I knew him from!

With Bunty, Lady Lancaster of Kimbolton's Dad and the boring 'science' bloke.

 

[Voley]

Heading up to Dartmoor again at the end of the week.

This is on the list:

Walk: Belstone, Devon

Step out on a remote hike through the Dartmoor National Park's northern moors and tors

www.countryfile.com

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

If you're interested in standing stones in Devon it's well worth checking out the Oxenham Arms in South Zeal. A former mediaeval monastery it contains two standing stones, one built into the wall in one of the rooms and another propping up a beam, iirc. Haven't been there for some years, but the food used to be pretty good too.

I posted this before, but I've quoted it again as South Zeal is dead close to Belstone.

 

[Carvaged]

I was too tired to explain it last night but the main point he makes in the video above that i thought was interesting relates to the idea that britains "oldest road" - the ridgeway - runs along a chalk seam from the dorset coast to east anglia

The chalkline

best map I can find of the ridgeway in full - an approximation:

which in the south tends to be high ground too

his point was that in pre-roman times the chalk was naturally fairly clear of plants as the soil is shallow, whereas on either side of the chalk line was bog or impenetrable dense forest - the chalk basically created a natural path

when thinking about megalthic sites something i hadn't thought about was how many places in Britain were basically inaccessible. Salisbury plane for example could be well accessed by the ridgeway

Yes, and not just a path - the thin poor soils theory fundamentally explains why comparatively desolate unproductive moorlands like Dartmoor and Exmoor (as well as regularly flooded river valleys and open plains with thin soils), were the OG locations for settlement, as they didn't require the felling of vast tracts of woodland and forest. It took metal tools before the most productive lowlands were finally opened up for settlement and agriculture.

 

[Storm Fox]

Yes, and not just a path - the thin poor soils theory fundamentally explains why comparatively desolate unproductive moorlands like Dartmoor and Exmoor (as well as regularly flooded river valleys and open plains with thin soils), were the OG locations for settlement, as they didn't require the felling of vast tracts of woodland and forest. It took metal tools before the most productive lowlands were finally opened up for settlement and agriculture.

Sorry what does OG location mean? Google returns lots of Fortnite results and 'OG Location Neolithic' doesn't seem to return anything useful.

 

[danny la rouge]

Sorry what does OG location mean? Google returns lots of Fortnite results and 'OG Location Neolithic' doesn't seem to return anything useful.

Original. It’s what the young folk are saying.

 

[ska invita]

Original Gangsta to be precise

 

[danny la rouge]

Original Gangsta to be precise

Indeed. But I thought that would be confusing.

 

[A380]

I was too tired to explain it last night but the main point he makes in the video above that i thought was interesting relates to the idea that britains "oldest road" - the ridgeway - runs along a chalk seam from the dorset coast to east anglia

The chalkline

best map I can find of the ridgeway in full - an approximation:

which in the south tends to be high ground too

his point was that in pre-roman times the chalk was naturally fairly clear of plants as the soil is shallow, whereas on either side of the chalk line was bog or impenetrable dense forest - the chalk basically created a natural path

when thinking about megalthic sites something i hadn't thought about was how many places in Britain were basically inaccessible. Salisbury plane for example could be well accessed by the ridgeway

I've walked the modern long distance Ridgeway path section as well as the Greensand ridge path. would recommend both. The ancient trackways of the ridgeway - parts of which also called the Icknield Way were more directions of travel along the escarpment following the easier walking less trees would have given and the springs which rise up at the bottom of the chalk ridge than what we would think of as a path or road now.

Dunstable (an otherwise boring town stuck on the side of Luton) is special as it hosts the cross roads of the Iknield Way/Ridge Way and Watling Street. It was an important border town for years. I must say though, you'd have to try very hard to feel the 'energy' at the crossroads now. Though when international football competitions disorder was a thing, the highlight of Bedfordshire was always the scraps to hold the double roundabouts (now replaced by lights) so maybe some ancient folk memory there, or just too much Stella....



Mystical ancient crossroads of the Iknield Way/Ridge Way and Watling Street.

 

[ska invita]

I've walked the modern long distance Ridgeway path section as well as the Greensand ridge path. would recommend both. The ancient trackways of the ridgeway - parts of which also called the Icknield Way were more directions of travel along the escarpment following the easier walking less trees would have given and the springs which rise up at the bottom of the chalk ridge than what we would think of as a path or road now.

Dunstable (an otherwise boring town stuck on the side of Luton) is special as it hosts the cross roads of the Iknield Way/Ridge Way and Watling Street. It was an important border town for years. I must say though, you'd have to try very hard to feel the 'energy' at the crossroads now. Though when international football competitions disorder was a thing, the highlight of Bedfordshire was always the scraps to hold the double roundabouts (now replaced by lights) so maybe some ancient folk memory there, or just too much Stella....

View attachment 308180

Mystical ancient crossroads of the Iknield Way/Ridge Way and Watling Street.

I would LOVE to do that walk. Did a couple of hours of it in Wiltshire and really want to do more, maybe on a bicycle.
I quite fancy holding the double roundabouts too now

 

[A380]

Eleven pages and still no mention of Ringstone Round...

 

[A380]

I would LOVE to do that walk. Did a couple of hours of it in Wiltshire and really want to do more, maybe on a bicycle.
I quite fancy holding the double roundabouts too now

TBF, If you don't have time to do it all, then do the Western section from Avebury to the Thames valley. Sadly the double roundabouts are long gone and replaced by lights.

 

[A380]

Another Bedfordshire Monolith. The war memorial in Leighton Buzzard is a modern (1920s) quarried single block of granite 25 feet 3 inches high and 3 feet 2 inches square, weighing 22 tons. Apparently it is still, surprisingly, the largest single block of granite ever quarried in the UK.

 

[Storm Fox]

TBF, If you don't have time to do it all, then do the Western section from Avebury to the Thames valley. Sadly the double roundabouts are long gone and replaced by lights.

Then close to Avebury there is the West Kennet Long Barrow and Silbury Hil. Although WKLB doesn't have a lot of parking close by. The nearest is a laybay for about 6 cars 1/4 a mile away, so may worth planning a longer walk.

 

[Voley]

I posted this before, but I've quoted it again as South Zeal is dead close to Belstone.

We're staying at the Oxenham at the end of Feb. Standing stone is in our room. Plus ghost monks.

Food is ace, you're right. We stopped for lunch and decided we needed to have a whole weekend there.

 

[two sheds]

readers of this thread may well enjoy this video



im too young to know who Jack Hargreaves was, but this was posted last week and has had 150,000 views already, which shows Jack was ahead of his time - a proto youtube creator!

fascinating film including stone circles and the like, but more generally is about reading and understanding the land

gold!!

Interesting - around 17:00 he talks about the Black Death liberating serfs so they could demand higher wages. Clearly the forerunner of Brexit

He does say that the government brought in laws to stop those improvements, though, so by now forcing people to take up low-paying jobs the tories may indeed have studied their history.

 

[ska invita]

Interesting - around 17:00 he talks about the Black Death liberating serfs so they could demand higher wages. Clearly the forerunner of Brexit

He does say that the government brought in laws to stop those improvements, though, so by now forcing people to take up low-paying jobs the tories may indeed have studied their history.

yes it did remind of certain parallels

 

[discokermit]

readers of this thread may well enjoy this video



im too young to know who Jack Hargreaves was, but this was posted last week and has had 150,000 views already, which shows Jack was ahead of his time - a proto youtube creator!

fascinating film including stone circles and the like, but more generally is about reading and understanding the land

gold!!

gold?
he gets it arse about face. he says people left the villages because jobs became available nearby and people left, then the people on the chalk took up the space with grazing. the usual bourgeois lie.
It was enclosure that had the people thrown off their land to be replaced by more valuable to the landlord sheep. then those people had to find somewhere to live and some way to feed themselves now they had been forced from their land.
it was force and theft that led to their moving. people didnt decide to move to a town, live in squalor and die at thirty five in a coal mine or whatever because they were attracted to it through better wages.
i read a thing once about how before the highland clearances a crofter could make a pair of shoes in a day or so but after being forced into work it would take weeks of work to be able to afford them.
the biggest theft in british history and good old jack thinks it was a boon to workers rights.

 

[ska invita]

gold?
he gets it arse about face. he says people left the villages because jobs became available nearby and people left, then the people on the chalk took up the space with grazing. It was enclosure that had the people thrown off their land to be replaced by more valuable to the landlord sheep.

id be happy to go with that but have you a source that says there was a wave of enclosure in the 1300s on the Dorset chalk highlands/downs?

The "gold" was referring to the presentation style btw - very enjoyable

 

[discokermit]

id be happy to go with that but have you a source that says there was a wave of enclosure in the 1300s on the Dorset chalk highlands/downs?

have you got proof it happened in the thirteen hundreds?
it happened all over britain and ireland, from the thirteenth century to the nineteenth. not always official enclosure.
have you got proof that landlords wanted to keep people on the downs and not get rich from the wool industry? for thousands of years they lived in the same places, housed, fed and clothed themselves, then all of a sudden they decided to get jobs that would impoverish them?

if you want this backed up by some middle class person who has been published, if that sort of thing is important to you, you will have to look yourself. try "the making of the english working class" or summat.

 

[ska invita]

have you got proof it happened in the thirteen hundreds?
it happened all over britain and ireland, from the thirteenth century to the nineteenth.
have you got proof that landlords wanted to keep people on the downs and not get rich from the wool industry? for thousands of years they lived in the same places, housed, fed and clothed themselves, then all of a sudden they decided to get jobs that would impoverish them?

if you want this backed up by some middle class person who has been published, if that sort of thing is important to you, you will have to look yourself. try "the making of the english working class" or summat.

so you dont know - nor do i. I'm aware of the (long process of) enclosures, thanks
the black plague killed up to 50% of the population in britain, no doubt it was a huge moment in rewriting customs and the landscape. the case made in the video that the peasantry that survived exerted power due to a labour shortage sounds very plausible.

people spend their lives investigating these things - id rather have some evidence than just "it must be enclosures because academics are all middle class". You might be right but you're guessing.