Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

[Idris2002]

nearer than the manson family i think you'll find.

Their house is a museum,

Where people come to see'um,

It really is a scream,

The Daesh family.

 

[Pickman's model]

A good start would not be to repeat the mistakes of the past; whether that is making token responses in order to make a political point (eg: plotting to take part in a bombing campaign that already has sixteen other nations, almost all of which have committed more force than we would), or acquiescing in events that destroy positive moves in the region (like the utter lack of fucks given when Morsi was kicked out and his supporters butchered, despite the clear electoral victories he obtained), or even the continual attempts to belittle diplomatic efforts, even though those same efforts have prevented at least once huge mistake (the failed bomb Assad campaign a few years ago) and are behind the emerging coalition against IS that we see today, as well as the lowering of tensions between the West and Iran. Some acknowledgement from the political class that Western policy in the region since the invasion of Afghanistan has been an unmitigated disaster, and legal consequences for those who were responsible, would not go amiss either.

Sadly having watched the Commons debate this afternoon, I think there is zero chance of any of that happening.

that's because in the uk we round up the most dangerous lunatics and force them to spend sentences of five years in our most secret prison, the house of commons.

 

[butchersapron]

He's still in NI, shoot owt that fuckin' moves.

Give me fuckin' strength!

He is, me having a pop at him isn't going to help.

 

[Pickman's model]

He is, me having a pop at him isn't going to help.

you'll need more than that to knock some sense into him

 

[Mr.Bishie]

He is, me having a pop at him isn't going to help.

Nor me tbf, but fuck me, it's fuckin' cloud cuckoo land.

 

[laptop]

I have been informed it is quite cold at the top of the hill where GCHQ is, first high ground after the Urals. The wind from the East is bone chilling in winter, allegedly, wrap up warm kiddiwinks.

That's Menwith Hill?

 

[Pickman's model]

That's Menwith Hill?

cheltenham i think you'll find

 

[brogdale]

cheltenham i think you'll find

Oh yes, but Sprocket did appear to be describing the geographic site of Menwith's 'golf balls', though.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh yes, but Sprocket did appear to be describing the geographic site of Menwith's 'golf balls', though.

rare for him to talk balls

 

[frogwoman]

'organisation for combat and jihad' turn up to sell their magazine on a picket line

'yea mate I'll buy that what's it about'

'its about how under God's law your boss will be beheaded'

'er...actually I don't have any money'

 

[Plumdaff]

Look at the money that was poured into kids company, because it existed, and was known at least -whatever its flaws -to be a place where kids in gangs or at high risk of returning to them actually went voluntarily and seemed to get results. Not unthinkable that money would be made available for a similar targeted program if devised.

That's not why Kid's Company was showered with money. It was a very adept organisation at speaking the language of the governments of the last twenty years and fitting why how they, politically and culturally, viewed inner city children. It never once in its existence objectively proved its effectiveness to anyone, and it's worth really questioning how that was possible.

Sorry, derail, but I had to make that point.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Fuckin' nora.

It was a thought.

What do you think can or should be done?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

It was a thought.

What do you think can or should be done?

Stop bombing civilians in the ME for starters - & welcoming refugees fleeing from the countries that we're fuckin' bombing! That's a start.

 

[Pickman's model]

Stop bombing civilians in the ME for starters - & welcoming refugees fleeing from the countries that we're fuckin' bombing! That's a start.

maybe to put countries previously bombed back together too.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

maybe to put countries previously bombed back together too.

What with, our so called Western democracy?

 

[Pickman's model]

What with, our so called Western democracy?

i was thinking about with our western jcbs and so on.

 

[Sprocket.]

That's Menwith Hill?

I just checked and it is apparent the building is on a slight rise on the outskirts of Cheltenham.
But told by a ex-local about the east wind in the area. He was moved on several times whilst using a CB (remember them?) in the vicinity, best reception and all that!

rare for him to talk balls

Sadly it appears that balls are out in the open on this occasion!

 

[Sasaferrato]

A good start would not be to repeat the mistakes of the past; whether that is making token responses in order to make a political point (eg: plotting to take part in a bombing campaign that already has sixteen other nations, almost all of which have committed more force than we would), or acquiescing in events that destroy positive moves in the region (like the utter lack of fucks given when Morsi was kicked out and his supporters butchered, despite the clear electoral victories he obtained), or even the continual attempts to belittle diplomatic efforts, even though those same efforts have prevented at least once huge mistake (the failed bomb Assad campaign a few years ago) and are behind the emerging coalition against IS that we see today, as well as the lowering of tensions between the West and Iran. Some acknowledgement from the political class that Western policy in the region since the invasion of Afghanistan has been an unmitigated disaster, and legal consequences for those who were responsible, would not go amiss either.

Sadly having watched the Commons debate this afternoon, I think there is zero chance of any of that happening.

I fully accept your points.

IS are murdering raping scum, certainly, but they are still human beings. Unfortunately, they are not reasonable human beings.

Do you really see a diplomatic way out of this? Partial capitulation may help, allow IS to hold the territory that they now hold, with a meaningful threat that their will be boots on the ground should they try and enlarge it. There would also need to be agreement to let those people leave their territory that wished to.

If I thought for a moment that the above would work, I would reluctantly endorse it, however, I don't think that that, or any variant thereof, would work.

IS is not going to lay down its arms other than by being confronted with overwhelming force.

Edited to add:

Iran seems to be coming out of the cold at the moment, albeit slowly.

 

[Pickman's model]

I fully accept your points.

IS are murdering raping scum, certainly, but they are still human beings. Unfortunately, they are not reasonable human beings.

Do you really see a diplomatic way out of this? Partial capitulation may help, allow IS to hold the territory that they now hold, with a meaningful threat that their will be boots on the ground should they try and enlarge it. There would also need to be agreement to let those people leave their territory that wished to.

If I thought for a moment that the above would work, I would reluctantly endorse it, however, I don't think that that, or any variant thereof, would work.

IS is not going to lay down its arms other than by being confronted with overwhelming force.

i don't think they'll lay down their arms even then.

 

[emanymton]

'organisation for combat and jihad' turn up to sell their magazine on a picket line

'yea mate I'll buy that what's it about'

'its about how under God's law your boss will be beheaded'

'er...actually I don't have any money'

I'd buy it on that basis to be frank.

 

[butchersapron]

I fully accept your points.

IS are murdering raping scum, certainly, but they are still human beings. Unfortunately, they are not reasonable human beings.

Do you really see a diplomatic way out of this? Partial capitulation may help, allow IS to hold the territory that they now hold, with a meaningful threat that their will be boots on the ground should they try and enlarge it. There would also need to be agreement to let those people leave their territory that wished to.

If I thought for a moment that the above would work, I would reluctantly endorse it, however, I don't think that that, or any variant thereof, would work.

IS is not going to lay down its arms other than by being confronted with overwhelming force.

Edited to add:

Iran seems to be coming out of the cold at the moment, albeit slowly.

You would endorse an ISIS state? You'd sell out the iraqi and syrian w/c for peace of mind at home? What a disgusting post.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Stop bombing civilians in the ME for starters - & welcoming refugees fleeing from the countries that we're fuckin' bombing! That's a start.

We are welcoming refugees, well, a few anyway.

No matter how many refugees we take or don't take, has no effect on the aims of IS though.

Bombing of civilians... sadly, and I do mean sadly, where there is a bombing campaign, whether the bombs are falling on Berlin or Coventry, civilians die. That can certainly be stopped, by stopping the bombing. The bombing campaign though is the only action being taken against IS. Do you suggest that no action be taken against them?

Lots of excellent points made on the thread as to why we are in the state we are in. Legal action against those responsible initially? Fair enough, but that will not stop IS from continuing their rampage. If they take all of Syria, that will be the launch pad for taking Lebanon or Jordan, and so on.

As I said, many posts regarding the reason for this, few recommending action that will lead to a positive outcome.

Whatever finally happens, the West has to be ready to provide major aid to Syria. The country is destroyed.

 

[Sasaferrato]

i don't think they'll lay down their arms even then.

In that case their wish for martyrdom will be granted.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Iran seems to be coming out of the cold at the moment, albeit slowly.

TEHRAN - A top Iranian army commander said Monday that his troops would take "decisive" action if Islamic State group militants come within 40 kilometres of its borders with Iraq and Afghanistan

.:Middle East Online:::.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Good news? Or not good news?

 

[butchersapron]

We are welcoming refugees, well, a few anyway.

No matter how many refugees we take or don't take, has no effect on the aims of IS though.

Bombing of civilians... sadly, and I do mean sadly, where there is a bombing campaign, whether the bombs are falling on Berlin or Coventry, civilians die. That can certainly be stopped, by stopping the bombing. The bombing campaign though is the only action being taken against IS. Do you suggest that no action be taken against them?

Lots of excellent points made on the thread as to why we are in the state we are in. Legal action against those responsible initially? Fair enough, but that will not stop IS from continuing their rampage. If they take all of Syria, that will be the launch pad for taking Lebanon or Jordan, and so on.

As I said, many posts regarding the reason for this, few recommending action that will lead to a positive outcome.

Whatever finally happens, the West has to be ready to provide major aid to Syria. The country is destroyed.

The only action being taken against ISIS? ISIS have just been cleared out of shingal in a joint HPG/YPG/PESH initiative, they have just been just been kicked out of NE syria by the YPF/SDF and the Regime is barreling into them from the west and will soon have palymra.

 

[Greebozz]

The thing I find personally most painful about the Paris terrorism is that we are all fundamentally helpless. There is no good way to proceed. If we strike back more terrorist attacks, if we do nothing we kowtow to violence. Or acquiesced to humiliating demands to cut diplomatic ties which IS do not approve of. Maybe the most reasonable Option is to let IS get on with what it wants to in the countries that it is operating and not interfere. That's probably the least worst option.

Obviously we care more about ourselves in the West than we do with atrocities happening in Syria. It's not a pleasant feeling that IS has won because it has the power and the volunteers to carry out this sort of mass murder. All the while we rush around like bumbling do-gooders trying to persuade rogue disaffected Muslims from trying to kill us. All these options feel like a rather humiliating defeat.

 

[butchersapron]

Seriously, ISIS are getting wiped out on the battlefield - hence these attacks.

 

[frogwoman]

'hows university son'
'yes not bad I joined a group called 'the organisation for combat and jihad'
'oh that's nice son do you want another biscuit'
'do you want to buy our magazine it's called Dabiq it talks about the end of the world and prophecies and stuff'
'no I do not'
'but they want to set up a caliphate in Iraq and Syria'
'son that's a nice idea but will never happen in real life what with both countries not having suffered devastating wars and foreign invasions and being completely functional and not at all susceptible to religious fundamentalism'
'FFS WHY DOES NOBODY UNDERSTAND'

 

[Sprocket.]

Clinical strikes or bombing campaigns cannot guarantee success.
I remember the Arclight campaigns in Vietnam, all they did was make it that even today vast areas of Vietnam and Laos are still unusable.