Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

[Anudder Oik]

'rounded up'?

you want people to be rounded up because they are under suspicion? No. Please no. This is not the response.

Arrested when there is evidence they have been in Syria Iraq and just returned. I have heard mentioned the number 350 but I'm not sure where the source of this info is.

They got this one Imran Khawaja, 27, (do you still say no please no?) in january. Yours is definitley not the response. How can you justify not rounding up the ones who have returned?

 

[8115]

Britain are going to employ 1900 more intelligence operatives, on the radio this evening.

 

[ska invita]

"Got a French flag on your Facebook profile picture? Congratulations on your corporate white supremacy."

"It’s a dismaying and damaging truth that Westerners care about and empathise with images of white-skinned women grieving in Topshop bobble hats far more than brown-skinned women grieving in niqabs and, when you lend your voice to Euro-centric campaigns such as Facebook’s flag filter, you exacerbate this. When we buy into such easy corporate public mourning, we uphold white supremacy. We’re essentially saying that white, Western lives matter more than others."

Why a French flag on your Facebook profile doesn't make you a hero

God I hate Amazon. ..

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Arrested when there is evidence they have been in Syria Iraq and just returned.

So you go down the US route. There are designated enemy nations and to visit them is to break the law. The state defines which other parts of the world you can and cannot visit? No that cannot be any answer to anything.

 

[Red Cat]

That starts at a point 5 years at least too late. It's useful for the period it covers. But it's the period before that explains stuff.

What should I read?

 

[frogwoman]

So you go down the US route. There are designated enemy nations and to visit them is to break the law. The state defines which other parts of the world you can and cannot visit? No that cannot be any answer to anything.

I am not disagreeing with you but do you think that someone who has joined IS as a foreign fighter and returned to the UK should be viewed with suspicion? I agree there shouldn't be any blanket approach of arresting people who may have got genuinely disillusioned with the whole thing but it seems crazy to treat fighting in Syria just like visiting any other country.

 

[butchersapron]

What should I read?

For a very good and useful journalistic narrative based thing ( and i would start there) is Black Flags: The Rise of Isis - it's an 'amazon' type book but really gets beyond the idea that this is a new thing. A lead in.

 

[Pickman's model]

'rounded up'?

you want people to be rounded up because they are under suspicion? No. Please no. This is not the response.

it quite possibly is the response.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I am not disagreeing with you but do you think that someone who has joined IS as a foreign fighter and returned to the UK should be viewed with suspicion? I agree there shouldn't be any blanket approach of arresting people who may have got genuinely disillusioned with the whole thing but it seems crazy to treat fighting in Syria just like visiting any other country.

Sure. But that wasn't as it was phrased. Truth is that people don't generally advertise beforehand why they're going to Syria or Iraq. It's not always to fight for IS.

There are inevitably going to be calls for more authoritarianism at home due to this, and one of those kinds of measures is for the state to become more like the US and list a bunch of places that it is illegal for a British person to visit without express prior permission. That is to be resisted, imo.

 

[weltweit]

Britain are going to employ 1900 more intelligence operatives, on the radio this evening.

Wonder where they are going to be based? that is a lot of desks.

 

[frogwoman]

Sure. But that wasn't as it was phrased. Truth is that people don't generally advertise beforehand why they're going to Syria or Iraq. It's not always to fight for IS.

There are inevitably going to be calls for more authoritarianism at home due to this, and one of those kinds of measures is for the state to become more like the US and list a bunch of places that it is illegal for a British person to visit without express prior permission. That is to be resisted, imo.

But there already is a list of such places. Kurdish people fighting for YPG have been arrested on arrival in the UK

 

[Red Cat]

For a very good and useful journalistic narrative based thing ( and i would start there) is Black Flags: The Rise of Isis - it's an 'amazon' type book but really gets beyond the idea that this is a new thing. A lead in.

Thanks

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But there already is a list of such places. Kurdish people fighting for YPG have been arrested on arrival in the UK

AFAIK it isn't on a formal footing in quite the way as it is in the US. Yet. I may be wrong. Either way it is to be resisted.

My alarms are raised when people call for some kind of internment of anyone who has travelled to 'enemy' territory.

 

[frogwoman]

I agree with you BTW and some counter terrorism experts have suggested that this is one of the things that keeps people who may be disillusioned with IS from leaving. The possibility that on return they will be locked up forever.

But surely you still have to treat such individuals with some suspicion.

 

[frogwoman]

Tbf I would not worry as in 30 years the caliphate will probably be an 'edgy' destination like north korea

AFAIK it isn't on a formal footing in quite the way as it is in the US. Yet. I may be wrong. Either way it is to be resisted.

My alarms are raised when people call for some kind of internment of anyone who has travelled to 'enemy' territory.

 

[brogdale]

I agree with you BTW and some counter terrorism experts have suggested that this is one of the things that keeps people who may be disillusioned with IS from leaving. The possibility that on return they will be locked up forever.

But surely you still have to treat such individuals with some suspicion.

I think they're also seen as potentially important intelligence assets. I'd imagine that's one reason why they habitually detain returnees?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Tbf I would not worry as in 30 years the caliphate will probably be an 'edgy' destination like north korea

It is always the reaction, though, to this kind of atrocity that the state demands more power over people instantly. Cameron's been making a wish-list already, long before it might realistically be possible to evaluate what might actually have been done to stop the Paris attacks. And people acquiesce because they're scared.

 

[weltweit]

If like me you worried about the person seen on one of Friday's videos hanging from a window ledge outside the club, read on: Paris terror: Hero stranger reveals how he rescued pregnant woman as she clung for life

 

[free spirit]

I am not disagreeing with you but do you think that someone who has joined IS as a foreign fighter and returned to the UK should be viewed with suspicion? I agree there shouldn't be any blanket approach of arresting people who may have got genuinely disillusioned with the whole thing but it seems crazy to treat fighting in Syria just like visiting any other country.

Many of those fighting with ISIS may well have joined other none ISIS factions to fight Assad, then found themselves sucked in to fighting for ISIS when their group decided to ally with ISIS, and those who leave now are presumably leaving because they're not liking the way ISIS are doing things. A bit less likely as time passes, but I think there was quite a lot of this happening with those who went out shortly after the armed struggle started to try to help overthrow Assad.

There's a bit of a UK contingent fighting with the Kurds as well apparently, who I've nothing but respect for.

I suppose I'd expect everyone coming back to be interviewed, subject to extra surveillance, and arrested and tried if there's evidence they've been involved in war crimes, targeting civilians etc. But also supported with councilling, help to reintegrate, find work etc

Worth remembering that as bad as ISIS might be, and might have behaved in some areas, Assad and his forces have killed far more civilians in Syria, and many of the pre-existing syrian groups that formally allied with ISIS aren't necessarily involved with the atrocities that ISIS have carried out elsewhere.

 

[butchersapron]

When your brigade joins ISIS (or dissolves and individuals enter isis - which is what really happens) you have the opp to leave. You don't have to do what you're told and you're not expected to. There is no one who hasn't chosen to be there now.

 

[free spirit]

Arrested when there is evidence they have been in Syria Iraq and just returned. I have heard mentioned the number 350 but I'm not sure where the source of this info is.

They got this one Imran Khawaja, 27, (do you still say no please no?) in january. Yours is definitley not the response. How can you justify not rounding up the ones who have returned?

rounding up and doing what with them?

banging them all up for the duration of a war on terrorism that's so far gone on for 14 years with no end in sight?

As a means of protecting our freedom that idea seems a bit problematic to me. See the US's problems with Guantanamo Bay for an example of how this sort of knee jerk reaction plays out longer term.

 

[butchersapron]

rounding up and doing what with them?
.

Establishing what they did in syria and for who. Rounding up is OTT emotional rhetoric. Detaining on entry or later if missed.

 

[butchersapron]

Liberal wrecking ball in full swing now btw

 

[brogdale]

Croydon EFDD Brexit 'debate' featuring UKIP MEP Gerard Batten postponed by Fairfield Halls "with regard to the sensitivities of the international situation."

But not before...

An EFDD leaflet, distributed to some central Croydon households over the weekend to promote tonight’s “debate”, included anti-refugee scaremongering that some EU states are giving illegal migrants passports and sending them on their way to Calais. It further stated that there is nothing we can do to stop them.

 

[bluescreen]

 

[frogwoman]

Worth remembering that as bad as ISIS might be, and might have behaved in some areas,

What does this mean?

 

[free spirit]

When your brigade joins ISIS (or dissolves and individuals enter isis - which is what really happens) you have the opp to leave. You don't have to do what you're told and you're not expected to. There is no one who hasn't chosen to be there now.

the option to leave and return to be interned in the UK?

Supposing what you say is always true, which seems a little unlikely to always be the case, what access to info about ISIS do those having to make that decision have? And how much option have they actually got to leave, if that involves crossing into either government held territory or crossing territory held by other rebel groups / ISIS territory?

I expect that most of the groups who've allied to ISIS in this way have done it largely to avoid fighting on 2 fronts, so they can focus on fighting the regime / retain control of their area, rather than out of a desire to join ISIS in their attacks on other rebel groups, genocide etc. Once they've joined though, they probably will then be expected to support attacks they have little choice over supporting.

It's a hugely complex situation, and I can well see that there will be people returning who've simply got sucked further and further into an out of control situation who don't support ISIS's extremist vision or methods, but found themselves nominally fighting for ISIS. I can't remember where I read it now, but I'm sure I read about a group of a few hundred who'd attempted to leave ISIS as they didn't agree with their methods, but were rounded up and shot rather than being allowed to leave.

 

[butchersapron]

the option to leave and return to be interned in the UK?

Supposing what you say is always true, which seems a little unlikely to always be the case, what access to info about ISIS do those having to make that decision have? And how much option have they actually got to leave, if that involves crossing into either government held territory or crossing territory held by other rebel groups / ISIS territory?

I expect that most of the groups who've allied to ISIS in this way have done it largely to avoid fighting on 2 fronts, so they can focus on fighting the regime / retain control of their area, rather than out of a desire to join ISIS in their attacks on other rebel groups, genocide etc. Once they've joined though, they probably will then be expected to support attacks they have little choice over supporting.

It's a hugely complex situation, and I can well see that there will be people returning who've simply got sucked further and further into an out of control situation who don't support ISIS's extremist vision or methods, but found themselves nominally fighting for ISIS. I can't remember where I read it now, but I'm sure I read about a group of a few hundred who'd attempted to leave ISIS as they didn't agree with their methods, but were rounded up and shot rather than being allowed to leave.

That option doesn't exist remember - you're posting about it being introduced in the future.

 

[LDC]

Some quite high level of self-important greenie delusion and bullshit borderline conspiracy stuff in this article in The Ecologist Paris attacks - COP21 and the war on terror

 

[frogwoman]

Some quite high level of self-important greenie delusion and bullshit borderline conspiracy stuff in this article in The Ecologist Paris attacks - COP21 and the war on terror

But failure to reach a strong climate agreement now looks more probable. And that's an outcome that would suit ISIS