Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

[Pickman's model]

For some reason you are chickening out of making your point. perhaps you don't have an argument or you can't back it up.

he's had the time. he posted the cartoon for the lols and his argument dull whataboutery already addressed on the thread.

 

[Idris2002]

edit: see also Dark Side of the Nation: Essays on Multiculturalism, Nationalism and Gender by Himani Bannerji. May be of special interest to Idris2002

I'm all about the dark side ("go home dad, you're drunk"). But, yeah, thanks for that.

 

[DotCommunist]

Post 1751 shows shocking stereotypes that seem to have been ignored because the posters are "the right sort of poster" (about 10 to 15 posts above this one).

both posters were suggesting that the figure looked like a racist caricature of a jewish person. We've all seen them sort of cartoons. Its certainly a racist caricature of an arab.

the main antisemetic thrust of it though comes from the star of david and ole glory on the same sleeve. The secret joo cabal, pupettmasters of the american state etc. Old conspiracy stuff. And the statesman would deffo run it as a cover

 

[butchersapron]

I'm all about the dark side ("go home dad, you're drunk"). But, yeah, thanks for that.

Just to clarify, it's about multiculturalism in Canada - from a marxist perspective.

 

[bimble]

Malik in Guardian today:
Terrorism has come about in assimilationist France and also in multicultural Britain. Why is that? | Kenan Malik

 

[SpineyNorman]

Stereotypes R us

Careful you'll have people shouting Racist soon!

I doubt it.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

And the statesman would deffo run it as a cover

You've said that twice now. The NS ran an ill-advised cover illustration (The Kosher Conspiracy) thirteen years ago under a different editor and different ownership, and apologised profusely afterwards. So it's not very likely that they'd repeat the mistake, or that they'd do so with an image which is considerably cruder, both politically and artistically, than the one that caused so much grief at the time.

 

[Pickman's model]

Strikes me as a boilerplate response - equivalent to the French "control the borders!!!"

police military liaison goes thru ch insp mark scoular at nsy

 

[DotCommunist]

You've said that twice now. The NS ran an ill-advised cover illustration (The Kosher Conspiracy) thirteen years ago under a different editor and different ownership, and apologised profusely afterwards. So it's not very likely that they'd repeat the mistake, or that they'd do so with an image which is considerably cruder, both politically and artistically, than the one that caused so much grief at the time.

bet they would

 

[Idris2002]

Just to clarify, it's about all multiculturalism in Canada - from a marxist perspective.

Cool. Canadian multiculturalism is itself (partly) a reaction to the physical force FLQ. The bilingual policy probably helped check the alienation of at least some Quebecois and therefore made it easier to suppress the FLQ in the October Crisis (in conjunction with emergency powers under the War Measures act, and the existence of a broader, open, democratic nationalist Quebec force as an alternative "pole of attraction" for those who remained disaffected).

Also, with regard to the assimilationist/multicultural thing, there's also the reaction of First Nations people to Trudeau the First's White Paper that basically advocated for their total absorption into the Canadian mainstream. That must also have factored into the way Canadian multiculturalism developed.

The White Paper 1969

 

[Orang Utan]

bet they would

You really think that?

 

[Pickman's model]

bet they would

i don't bet on certainties

 

[Idris2002]

double post

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Malik in Guardian today:
Terrorism has come about in assimilationist France and also in multicultural Britain. Why is that? | Kenan Malik

He touches on a point that I've long pondered: second generation and now third generation immigrants in many cases feeling more separate culturally than their parents or grandparents. Growing numbers feeling rejected by and so rejecting secular society. It's the opposite of what I would have guessed would happen 20 or 30 years ago.

The only attacker identified so far was French. We'll see how many more were also French. Most recent terrorist attacks in Europe have been carried out by people from the country in which the attack took place. And I would include Anders Breivik. Not an Islamist - an anti-Islamist - but attacking exactly the same target: those who would wish to live and mix together.

 

[Idris2002]

frogwoman, you mentioned a while back you were reading a book on the ideological origins of Breivik's crimes (or at least one that argued that the likes of him could be a big threat in the near future) - can you remind us of the author and title please?

 

[Pickman's model]

double post

if double carpet then interested

 

[Pickman's model]

He touches on a point that I've long pondered: second generation and now third generation immigrants in many cases feeling more separate culturally than their parents or grandparents. Growing numbers feeling rejected by and so rejecting secular society. It's the opposite of what I would have guessed would happen 20 or 30 years ago.

The only attacker identified so far was French. We'll see how many more were also French. Most recent terrorist attacks in Europe have been carried out by people from the country in which the attack took place. And I would include Anders Breivik. Not an Islamist - an anti-Islamist - but attacking exactly the same target: those who would wish to live and mix together.

interesting conflation of "terrorism" with "islamism" as tho no terrorism without islamism - i am of course pleased you drign to include beivik as an honorary terrorist.

 

[bimble]

He touches on a point that I've long pondered: second generation and now third generation immigrants in many cases feeling more separate culturally than their parents or grandparents. Growing numbers feeling rejected by and so rejecting secular society. It's the opposite of what I would have guessed would happen 20 or 30 years ago.

The only attacker identified so far was French. We'll see how many more were also French. Most recent terrorist attacks in Europe have been carried out by people from the country in which the attack took place. And I would include Anders Breivik. Not an Islamist - an anti-Islamist - but attacking exactly the same target: those who would wish to live and mix together.

Yes, he makes that clear.
The 'radicalization is not so simple' piece explains further (surprised me):
"A survey of British jihadis by researchers at Queen Mary College in London found that support for jihadism is unrelated to ‘social inequalities or poor education’; rather, those drawn to jihadist groups were 18- to 20-year-olds from wealthy families who spoke English at home and were educated to a high, often university, level. Or, as the study out it, ‘Youth, wealth, and being in education… were risk factors’. Insofar as they are alienated, it is not because wannabe jihadis are poorly integrated, in the conventional way we think of integration, or because they are poor or lack resources."

RADICALIZATION IS NOT SO SIMPLE

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, he makes that clear.
The 'radicalization is not so simple' piece explains further (surprised me):
"A survey of British jihadis by researchers at Queen Mary College in London found that support for jihadism is unrelated to ‘social inequalities or poor education’; rather, those drawn to jihadist groups were 18- to 20-year-olds from wealthy families who spoke English at home and were educated to a high, often university, level. Or, as the study out it, ‘Youth, wealth, and being in education… were risk factors’. Insofar as they are alienated, it is not because wannabe jihadis are poorly integrated, in the conventional way we think of integration, or because they because they are poor or lack resources."

RADICALIZATION IS NOT SO SIMPLE

city university, ucl and birkbeck among uk institutions who number jihadis among their alumni.

 

[Idris2002]

Yes, he makes that clear.
The 'radicalization is not so simple' piece explains further (surprised me):
"A survey of British jihadis by researchers at Queen Mary College in London found that support for jihadism is unrelated to ‘social inequalities or poor education’; rather, those drawn to jihadist groups were 18- to 20-year-olds from wealthy families who spoke English at home and were educated to a high, often university, level. Or, as the study out it, ‘Youth, wealth, and being in education… were risk factors’. Insofar as they are alienated, it is not because wannabe jihadis are poorly integrated, in the conventional way we think of integration, or because they because they are poor or lack resources."

RADICALIZATION IS NOT SO SIMPLE

A few months back I read a short piece in the New York Times about a guy who was studying participation in far-right antisemitic groups in the US - this guy was in despair because he couldn't make his model, in which poverty or lack of resources drove radicalisation, fit with the facts of the cases he was getting of yuppie fascists.

 

[bluescreen]

interesting conflation of "terrorism" with "islamism" as tho no terrorism without islamism - i am of course pleased you drign to include beivik as an honorary terrorist.

This article argues that the proportion of religiously motivated terrorist attacks in the EU is minuscule.
Less Than 2 Percent Of Terrorist Attacks In The E.U. Are Religiously Motivated

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, he makes that clear.
The 'radicalization is not so simple' piece explains further (surprised me):
"A survey of British jihadis by researchers at Queen Mary College in London found that support for jihadism is unrelated to ‘social inequalities or poor education’; rather, those drawn to jihadist groups were 18- to 20-year-olds from wealthy families who spoke English at home and were educated to a high, often university, level. Or, as the study out it, ‘Youth, wealth, and being in education… were risk factors’. Insofar as they are alienated, it is not because wannabe jihadis are poorly integrated, in the conventional way we think of integration, or because they are poor or lack resources."

RADICALIZATION IS NOT SO SIMPLE

20 years ago jihadi activity on campus usually hizb ut tahrir. now more violent. long history of failure to confront or disruptactivity by su's and colleges/unis.

 

[Pickman's model]

This article argues that the proportion of religiously motivated terrorist attacks in the EU is minuscule.
Less Than 2 Percent Of Terrorist Attacks In The E.U. Are Religiously Motivated

yeh, which is what makes lbj's assertion so peculiar

 

[littlebabyjesus]

interesting conflation of "terrorism" with "islamism" as tho no terrorism without islamism - i am of course pleased you drign to include beivik as an honorary terrorist.

You missed my point completely. Malik didn't mention Breivik in his list. I would, and I think it's important to include him.

 

[Pickman's model]

You missed my point completely. Malik didn't mention Breivik in his list. I would, and I think it's important to include him.

grand

 

[bimble]

That welsh boy who became quite a prominent IS member, Reyaad Khan, the one apparently killed earlier this year, there was film of him speaking to camera before he chose the holy path, talking eloquently about how many of his friends had joined gangs and how life lacked meaning and nobody had anything productive to do, that maybe good sports facilities might help etc. .
here it is Jihadist who wanted to be British PM

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This article argues that the proportion of religiously motivated terrorist attacks in the EU is minuscule.
Less Than 2 Percent Of Terrorist Attacks In The E.U. Are Religiously Motivated

How many of those attacks include the gunning down of people in public places, though? The mass slaughters have tended to be motivated by a desire to attack pluralism in one way or another.

Lashing out at a society from which you feel rejected, and killing randomly to make your point, I would say is very different from other attacks that would be classed as terrorism - such as an attack on a research institute by animal rights groups.

 

[1805]

The borders of European countries seem to be quite porous.
There's shed loads of guns and weaponry lying around in the old Eastern Bloc countries, so getting them into France I think wouldn't be much of a problem.
Getting them into the hands of a few ideologically driven fanatics with organisational skills is a recipe for mayhem.
An idiot with a gun can cause carnage in five minutes.
Only thing to stop them is a good intelligence service, which on the last three occasions this year the French have been unable to step up to the mark to prevent this.

It's unreasonable to rely on the Intelligence Services to stop this all the time. Like it or not we are involved in a war on many fronts, however I am reminded of Herman Goering remarks at the Nuremberg trials.

Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

 

[Pickman's model]

It's unreasonable to rely on the Intelligence Services to stop this all the time. Like it or not we are involved in a war on many fronts, however I am reminded of Herman Goering remarks at the Nuremberg trials.

Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

so cynicism in one so young

 

[Idris2002]

A few months back I read a short piece in the New York Times about a guy who was studying participation in far-right antisemitic groups in the US - this guy was in despair because he couldn't make his model, in which poverty or lack of resources drove radicalisation, fit with the facts of the cases he was getting of yuppie fascists.

Found the piece in question:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/13/opinion/sunday/seth-stephens-davidowitz-the-data-of-hate.html