Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

[isvicthere?]

Well, there is another word besides 'loon' for someone who extols the need for a great leader for people to line up behind, sees modern art and culture as 'degenerate' and goes on about the cultural inferiority and primitive ways of various sorts of non-white people ...

Go on.....

 

[binka]

It says I found his contribution interesting binka

<sigh>

Really? You find returning banned posters playing the part of a racist troll interesting? I don't believe you

 

[Voley]

I've avoided the news for the last couple of days because I just didn't want to engage with the shitty reality of these events - but reality has to be faced eventually.
Right now I can see nothing but entirely negative repercussions -
The anti-immigation/anti islam agenda will go into overdrive now. Those temporarily muted by the tradgedys of refugee drowning in their thousands will be back in full roar - and then some. In the UK the likes of the The Daily Mail wasted no time in exploiting the victims to fuel their shit stirring agenda - I imagine this will be even more the case in France.
The far right in france will see this as Christmas come early.
Politically the arguments for more military intervention will dominate. Their will be another round of restrictions on civil liberties, free movement and ever more state surveillance and intrusion.
After the russian plane bomb and Paris attack most people will feel that an attack in the UK is only a matter of time - and this fear will further distort debate.
Any attempt to respond to this rationally, by understanding the context and the complexity will be drowned out.
Some tragedies - such as the hillsborough or the pictures of drowned refugee kids - shock society in a way that makes them respond with humanity and greater understanding as people seek to put things right. Attacks like have the exact opposite effect - people are bewildered and angry and want to strike back at those seen as repsonsible exactly the reaction that the cunts who did this want.
So that means bombing even more fuck out of the middle east, turning on "suspect" communities and throwing desperate refugees back into the sea.

Just fuck fuck fuck you fucking cunts all around.

My thoughts entirely mate. I'd avoided the press / here this weekend too for the same reason. Just read this whole thread and I'm feeling very apprehensive about the future in a way I haven't since 9/11 and Bush.

 

[8den]

Make Kay Burley stop ffs

One thing the people of Lebanon and Syria have going for them, Kay Burley isn't stalking their streets hawking mawkish sentiments.

 

[Kaka Tim]

My thoughts entirely mate. I'd avoided the press / here this weekend too for the same reason. Just read this whole thread and I'm feeling very apprehensive about the future in a way I haven't since 9/11 and Bush.

same. Its a fucking 9/11 reboot. Will get ten times worse when/if there's another massacre in London within the next few weeks.

 

[Anudder Oik]

I heard ordinary people (not raving right wingers) express concern about terrorists using the refugee routes to infiltrate and perpetrate attacks in europe. Now it seems, the inevitable scenario has happened. On one side the right wing press are trumpeting it for their own agenda, and on the other end of the political spectrum the only response seems to be deny or avoid. Knee-jerking really.

It is now a key issue, not because the right wing are using it but because ordinary people will be concerned about it.

Is the left capable of addressing this specific issue without tying itself in knots? It doesn't do to just feel uncomfortable with the theme.

 

[Citizen66]

I heard ordinary people (not raving right wingers) express concern about terrorists using the refugee routes to infiltrate and perpetrate attacks in europe. Now it seems, the inevitable scenario has happened. On one side the right wing press are trumpeting it for their own agenda, and on the other end of the political spectrum the only response seems to be deny or avoid. Knee-jerking really.

It is now a key issue, not because the right wing are using it but because ordinary people will be concerned about it.

Is the left capable of addressing this specific issue without tying itself in knots? It doesn't do to just feel uncomfortable with the theme.

What theme? Isis are fascist cunts. The cunts funding them need to be exposed.

 

[Kaka Tim]

How do you respond to an Atrocity when they are still clearing up the blood, picking up the bodies and dozens more are fighting for their lives in hospital?

Well - if you're John Rentoul its the perfect opportunity to take a cheap swipe at Jeremy Corbyn -

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Seems to me that people confuse themselves by talking about 'sides' in this.

It makes more sense to me to see systems within which positive feedbacks occur to escalate this horrible shit.

Most of the actions being proposed on the basis of an analysis framed in terms of 'sides' just add to the positive feedbacks.

 

[jusali]

What theme? Isis are fascist cunts. The cunts funding them need to be exposed.

And those selling them arms!

 

[mauvais]

I've avoided the news for the last couple of days because I just didn't want to engage with the shitty reality of these events - but reality has to be faced eventually.
Right now I can see nothing but entirely negative repercussions <snip>

I share your fears but it's not universally negative - plenty of causes for hope. Look at #porteouverte. Look at the people queuing up to give blood. Look at the aftermath of Charlie Hebdo and the manifest solidarity and refusal to be divided that that entailed, you know? Of course it's fuel for those with opposing politics, of course it sets back any progressive narrative, but perhaps not proportionally because of the above.

 

[2hats]

Did you look at the replies?

Thank you. That goes a little way to restoring my hope for the human race. I made the mistake of watching the Sky News Shite Spews channel yesterday for three minutes but had to turn it off after seeing that particular vile creature twice describe how no one wanted to appear on TV talking to her because they were 'too upset'. So, naturally, out of concern and respect for them she exhorted her camera crew to get close ups of said people from across the street. Presumably this activity was in lieu of not being able to find any victim's personal belongings to rifle through, unlike her colleagues.

 

[bimble]

Is the left capable of addressing this specific issue without tying itself in knots? It doesn't do to just feel uncomfortable with the theme.

I have no idea. Agree that's a very important uncomfortable question.
If the left can't speak on it at all then the only voices on the subject will be people like Katie Hopkins, writing in the Daily Mail;

"Jeremy Corbyn says this is an attack on the vibrant multicultural cities we all know and love.
No, Jeremy, it isn't. It isn't. You stupid man. It's an attack on France, on French sensibilities and the French way of life. Mostly, it's an attack on parents and children.
Don't use this attack to defend multiculturalism. We don't all love multiculturalism. We don't all want equality the way you see it. We don't want to live where we are second-class citizens in our own country.
And I blame you. I blame you and every other zealot who tells me race is not an issue. I blame you who tell me all migrants are welcome. I blame you who tell me I am a racist when all I am is proud of my people."
etc.

 

[teqniq]

I thought there was a thread about the bombing in Beirut but there isn't and perhaps it's a bit late to start one now. I saw this guy mentioned on Twitter a couple of days ago and now someone has put up a page about him. Big respect, RIP him and his daughter.

Meet the Man Who Sacrificed Himself to Save Hundreds From ISIS Terrorists

 

[Pickman's model]

I share your fears but it's not universally negative - plenty of causes for hope. Look at #porteouverte. Look at the people queuing up to give blood. Look at the aftermath of Charlie Hebdo and the manifest solidarity and refusal to be divided that that entailed, you know? Of course it's fuel for those with opposing politics, of course it sets back any progressive narrative, but perhaps not proportionally because of the above.

weighs rather light imo compared to the escalating war in the middle east and instability in eastern europe. these events will increase the chance of a general war. 13/11 will mean attacks on refugees across europe. people giving blood may become a common sight.

 

[rorymac]

Really? You find returning banned posters playing the part of a racist troll interesting? I don't believe you

How am I supposed to know if someone is a banned returning poster ? I don't know or even care if they are racist. I've read all this thread from the start and found what they said interesting .. no conclusions.
I find Islam interesting, Christianity interesting, atheism interesting, culture interesting, neoliberal fascism interesting, terrorism interesting. I believe in God but have atheist friends, I don't believe my beliefs will save me from anything .. I struggle but try to understand fundamentalists who believe they will be with Allah and 7 virgins and who believe they are fighting a holy war. I don't have answers and I don't know much but I like to gain knowledge, be aware and not angry in a powerless situation. Censorship is the enemy of that.
That poster posted stuff I found interesting .. that's it.

 

[butchersapron]

There seems to be some confusion about where ISIS get arms - the vast majority of the stuff they're using in Syria and Iraq came from the taking of Mosul in June 2014 where they gained access to over a billion dollars worth of US donated weaponry that the Iraqi army abandoned as it fled the city. That won't be the stuff the ones involved in european attacks will be using. That will have come from eastern europe and through the balkans. That trade is not going to be stopped any time soon as there is neither the will, the capacity nor the ability to shut it down when smuggling forms a central part of many local economies and when supplies are plentiful - as they will be for some time yet.

Funding for european based arms purchases is never going to be a problem for these people, and ISIS in Iraq and Syria are now largely self-funding. The idea of wealthy individuals funding them is now massively out of date and has been so for years now.

 

[Pickman's model]

How am I supposed to know if someone is a banned returning poster ? I don't know or even care if they are racist. I've read all this thread from the start and found what they said interesting .. no conclusions.
I find Islam interesting, Christianity interesting, atheism interesting, culture interesting, neoliberal fascism interesting, terrorism interesting. I believe in God but have atheist friends, I don't believe my beliefs will save me from anything .. I struggle but try to understand fundamentalists who believe they will be with Allah and 7 virgins and who believe they are fighting a holy war. I don't have answers and I don't know much but I like to gain knowledge, be aware and not angry in a powerless situation. Censorship is the enemy of that.
That poster posted stuff I found interesting .. that's it.

i found it interesting from a psychological and indeed logical pov but dull and trite in political terms

 

[machine cat]

How am I supposed to know if someone is a banned returning poster ? I don't know or even care if they are racist. I've read all this thread from the start and found what they said interesting .. no conclusions.
I find Islam interesting, Christianity interesting, atheism interesting, culture interesting, neoliberal fascism interesting, terrorism interesting. I believe in God but have atheist friends, I don't believe my beliefs will save me from anything .. I struggle but try to understand fundamentalists who believe they will be with Allah and 7 virgins and who believe they are fighting a holy war. I don't have answers and I don't know much but I like to gain knowledge, be aware and not angry in a powerless situation. Censorship is the enemy of that.
That poster posted stuff I found interesting .. that's it.

Considering some of the other posts on this thread he was a fucking saint.

 

[1%er]

 

[butchersapron]

Jesus, bring back ninja in place of that shit.

edit: interesting lot of sites that's appeared on btw - anti-semitic, racist anti-imperialist filth usually.

 

[8den]

I have no idea. Agree that's a very important uncomfortable question.
If the left can't speak on it at all then the only voices on the subject will be people like Katie Hopkins, writing in the Daily Mail;

"Jeremy Corbyn says this is an attack on the vibrant multicultural cities we all know and love.
No, Jeremy, it isn't. It isn't. You stupid man. It's an attack on France, on French sensibilities and the French way of life. Mostly, it's an attack on parents and children.
Don't use this attack to defend multiculturalism. We don't all love multiculturalism. We don't all want equality the way you see it. We don't want to live where we are second-class citizens in our own country.
And I blame you. I blame you and every other zealot who tells me race is not an issue. I blame you who tell me all migrants are welcome. I blame you who tell me I am a racist when all I am is proud of my people."
etc.

Please link and don't quote I don't need to read her awful shit

 

[chilango]

(posted a shit cartoon)

Well done

 

[machine cat]

Considering some of the other posts on this thread he was a fucking saint.

View attachment 79670

See

 

[Athos]

I heard ordinary people (not raving right wingers) express concern about terrorists using the refugee routes to infiltrate and perpetrate attacks in europe. Now it seems, the inevitable scenario has happened. On one side the right wing press are trumpeting it for their own agenda, and on the other end of the political spectrum the only response seems to be deny or avoid. Knee-jerking really.

It is now a key issue, not because the right wing are using it but because ordinary people will be concerned about it.

Is the left capable of addressing this specific issue without tying itself in knots? It doesn't do to just feel uncomfortable with the theme.

It's obvious that mass immigration (e.g. the recent Syrian refugee crisis) could be used to facilitate atrocities like that of recent days. But we need someone with the bottle to say that assuming that risk is a price we should pay for doing the right thing.

 

[Citizen66]

There seems to be some confusion about where ISIS get arms - the vast majority of the stuff they're using in Syria and Iraq came from the taking of Mosul in June 2014 where they gained access to over a billion dollars worth of US donated weaponry that the Iraqi army abandoned as it fled the city. That won't be the stuff the ones involved in european attacks will be using. That will have come from eastern europe and through the balkans. That trade is not going to be stopped any time soon as there is neither the will, the capacity nor the ability to shut it down when smuggling forms a central part of many local economies and when supplies are plentiful - as they will be for some time yet.

Funding for european based arms purchases is never going to be a problem for these people, and ISIS in Iraq and Syria are now largely self-funding. The idea of wealthy individuals funding them is now massively out of date and has been so for years now.

Not wealthy individuals. Are you saying they're completely independent of any state actors?

 

[Pickman's model]

It's obvious that mass immigration (e.g. the recent Syrian refugee crisis) could be used to facilitate atrocities like that of recent days. But we need someone with the bottle to say that assuming that risk is a price we should pay for doing the right thing.

europe really rather risk-averse these days.

 

[chilango]

It's obvious that mass immigration (e.g. the recent Syrian refugee crisis) could be used to facilitate atrocities like that of recent days. But we need someone with the bottle to say that assuming that risk is a price we should pay for doing the right thing.

More to the immediate point...

...how many of the jihadis operating in the EU came in as refugees? and how many are home grown?

...and even more important why would Daesh want to use refugees - and make sure we know that they do?

 

[8den]

View attachment 79670

Oh fuck off

 

[danny la rouge]

I have no idea. Agree that's a very important uncomfortable question.
If the left can't speak on it at all then the only voices on the subject will be people like Katie Hopkins, writing in the Daily Mail;

"Jeremy Corbyn says this is an attack on the vibrant multicultural cities we all know and love.
No, Jeremy, it isn't. It isn't. You stupid man. It's an attack on France, on French sensibilities and the French way of life. Mostly, it's an attack on parents and children.
Don't use this attack to defend multiculturalism. We don't all love multiculturalism. We don't all want equality the way you see it. We don't want to live where we are second-class citizens in our own country.
And I blame you. I blame you and every other zealot who tells me race is not an issue. I blame you who tell me all migrants are welcome. I blame you who tell me I am a racist when all I am is proud of my people."
etc.

Leaving aside the horrible xenophobia and putting to one side for now her particular way of using the term multiculturalism, she's more ill-informed than I thought, because that's what the terrorists specifically say they *are* attacking: the multiethnic shared experience.