Loughborough Junction public space improvements - consultation begins

[CH1]

LJAG have made mistake of allowing themselves to become to close to the Council.

Some of their earlier projects could not have been achieved without being close to the council (and Network Rail for that matter).
E.g. the Cambrian artwork under the railway arch at Cambria Road is presumably sanctioned by Network Rail and LJAG's efforts to mobilise residents around Elam Open Space (and of course "The Farm") no doubt required Lambeth's agreement [unless this is direct action - which I doubt]

 

[bimble]

The new planners (Fluid, working on the LJ Masterplan) did not suggest the road closures.
They were suggested by the old planners (DSDHA who produced the LJ Plan). But it was not mentioned in the Plan: it must have been developed later.
It was touched on in the Feb 2014 LJAG/Lambeth Public Realm meeting minutes:
Narrow Loughborough Road and Hinton Road making Coldharbour Lane the main route through LJ. RA [Richard Ambler, Lambeth Cycling Officer]: "this would tie in well with this being a cycle quietway."[/QUOTE]

"Narrow Loughborough Road and Hinton Road making Coldharbour Lane the main route through LJ"?
An excellent idea!
Shove all the traffic out of the only modern wide road onto the main shopping and pedestrian street, and the one used by most of the buses.
Much appreciated by pedestrians, shoppers, people who use buses

 

[CH1]

So, let's wait and see whether or not that threshold is crossed as a result of the road closures.

It has certainly increased out of all proportion for people having nothing to do with driving on Loughborough Road. My house has become an emergency second bus stop on Coldharbour Lane.

 

[bimble]

The new planners (Fluid, working on the LJ Masterplan) did not suggest the road closures.
They were suggested by the old planners (DSDHA who produced the LJ Plan). But it was not mentioned in the Plan: it must have been developed later.

It was touched on in the Feb 2014 LJAG/Lambeth Public Realm meeting minutes:
Narrow Loughborough Road and Hinton Road making Coldharbour Lane the main route through LJ. RA [Richard Ambler, Lambeth Cycling Officer]: "this would tie in well with this being a cycle quietway."

"Narrow Loughborough Road and Hinton Road making Coldharbour Lane the main route through LJ"?
An excellent idea!
Shove all the traffic out of the only modern wide road onto the main shopping and pedestrian street, and the one used by most of the buses.
Much appreciated by pedestrians, shoppers, people who use buses.

 

[CH1]

One problem with the road closure may be that it does not go far enough.

Right now, 'though' drivers can divert around it, apparently causing congestion.

More comprehensive closures could deliver what you say you want:

Better for pedestrians
Better (quicker) public transport
Environmental (carbon-cutting) gains
Reduced (deadly) fumes

Surely what you want is to move the congestion charge boundary to take in Zone 2?

 

[bimble]

2,054 people willing to pass judgement on the outcome of an incomplete experiment.

2,055 if you count those immovably in favour?

 

[teuchter]

2,055 if you count those immovably in favour?

If that extra one is supposed me, then you've clearly not read what I've been writing here and all discussion with you is a waste of time.

 

[bimble]

If that extra one is supposed me, then you've clearly not read what I've been writing here and all discussion with you is a waste of time.

Ok I'm sorry. Will leave you in peace.

 

[critical1]

I wonder why Rosendale put up opposition then road closure declined, Loughborough puts up opposition road closure agreed!!!

Is there some sort of divide in Lambeth

 

[teuchter]

How does the rate of cyclist hospitalisation pre- and post- closures compare? (And please provide some details of the geographical area you are taking your samples from)

Are you confident your two-or-three week sample period of post-closure cyclist hospitalisation rate represents information that you can extrapolate anything meaningful from? (Clue: answer is almost certainly not).

Awaiting your replies with interest critical1

 

[critical1]

Awaiting your replies with interest critical1

 

[bimble]

 

[Beasley]

Stop that NOW! Manter may be watching.

 

[Beasley]

Interesting comment on the other Change.org petition Lambeth council: Community support for Loughborough Junction Plan

From Anthea Masey of LJAG:
“In all the fuss about the road closures the vision for a better Loughborough Junction is getting lost.”

 

[irf520]

Awaiting your replies with interest critical1

The thing is, this whole "let's try it and see what happens" approach is a specious argument. You are proposing removing a structural element of the road network. Would you start with a somewhat dilapidated building, remove a structural element then wait six months to see if it falls down? If it doesn't fall down, then what? You start removing more structural elements - a few bricks here, a beam there, a lintel there. Still it doesn't fall down. One day there's a strong gust of wind or a slight ground tremor, and down it comes. I am against the principle of removing structural elements of the road network because it weakens the network as a whole. What happens if there is an accident or a police incident or even roadworks on one of the few remaining available roads? No-one is going anywhere, that's what.

 

[teuchter]

The thing is, this whole "let's try it and see what happens" approach is a specious argument. You are proposing removing a structural element of the road network. Would you start with a somewhat dilapidated building, remove a structural element then wait six months to see if it falls down? If it doesn't fall down, then what? You start removing more structural elements - a few bricks here, a beam there, a lintel there. Still it doesn't fall down. One day there's a strong gust of wind or a slight ground tremor, and down it comes. I am against the principle of removing structural elements of the road network because it weakens the network as a whole. What happens if there is an accident or a police incident or even roadworks on one of the few remaining available roads? No-one is going anywhere, that's what.

Quite a silly and simplistic analogy, I think, but before I reply can you define what you mean by "structural element of the road network" and how you distinguish them from non-structural elements, please.

 

[bimble]

People like this are in favour.
Which is good to know. I mean its nice that she cares about this squalid little place.
I wonder which local businesses she visits on her way through. Maybe she stops for a cheeky fried chicken.

 

[Beasley]

can you define what you mean by "structural element of the road network"

The meaning is clear enough for me. The route through fields shown on maps as far back as 1745 was the first to be built on in later developments and became a main component -- structural element -- of the area's road system.

 

[editor]

According to a reader comment on Buzz:

There’s a LJAG Planning meeting tomorrow (Thursday) at 6.30 in the Loughborough Centre (corner of Barrington and Angell).

They have invited the public.

As well as the LJAG there will also be representatives from Lambeth Council and the Stockwell Partnership.

So that’s all the ‘players’ in this debacle – come to the meeting and have your say.

There’s also a new petition…

Lambeth Council: Reverse the Loughborough Junction Road Closures Now!

 

[teuchter]

The meaning is clear enough for me. The route through fields shown on maps as far back as 1745 was the first to be built on in later developments and became a main component -- structural element -- of the area's road system.
View attachment 78055 View attachment 78058

You haven't given a definition of "structural element of the road network". You've just restated that Loughborough Road is one.
Unless the definition is "a road what was there when it was still mostly fields round here"?

 

[LadyV]

Interesting comment on the other Change.org petition Lambeth council: Community support for Loughborough Junction Plan

From Anthea Masey of LJAG:
“In all the fuss about the road closures the vision for a better Loughborough Junction is getting lost.”

Sadly she's right, it's soured the whole scheme, which is such a shame because the general aims and ideas are good, it's just this one and it's shockingly bad implementation that has buggered everything up

 

[Beasley]

such a shame because the general aims and ideas are good

The basic idea -- public space on LR -- was not very good at all. Lambeth should have counselled against it and provided professional help with a less disruptive scheme.

 

[LadyV]

Lambeth council: Community support for Loughborough Junction Plan

I think the other Change.org petition has got slightly confused. Some people are seeing it as a place to support the road closures whereas others seem to be using it as a place to support the Masterplan but not the closures, it doesn't have very clear aims.

 

[LadyV]

The basic idea -- public space on LR -- was not very good at all. Lambeth should have counselled against it and provided professional help with a less disruptive scheme.

I meant the general aims of the original Masterplan, make the area nicer to be in, narrow but keep open road, cycle lanes, more space for pedestrians etc, less pollution, I support all of those things, it's when the confusion of trying to join up the farm to Wyck Gardens and then the road closures came in that it all started to go screwy.

Everyone is so focused just on the road closures right now that the original ideas are being lost and it has soured everyone's views

 

[bimble]

Lambeth council: Community support for Loughborough Junction Plan

I think the other Change.org petition has got slightly confused. Some people are seeing it as a place to support the road closures whereas others seem to be using it as a place to support the Masterplan but not the closures, it doesn't have very clear aims.

Yes, I noticed that too. People (some) are signing their names to that petition and then using the comment button to say how much they don't want this road closure scheme. The petition doesn't really say what it's about very clearly.

 

[bimble]

Awaiting your replies with interest critical1

I too would really like to know about any change in average accident rates and any change in emergency response times before and since the closures. I'd expect those numbers to be collected and looked at and shared as part of Lambeth's evaluation of the scheme.
Along with any notable increase in bus journey times along CHL, any change to air quality on CHl, and so on.

I don't think it's necessarily critical1's job, strictly speaking, to get all that vital information together.
I haven't heard that the council are planning to do any of those things though.
Far as I know they'll just be counting cars?

 

[teuchter]

It isn't really critical1's job, strictly speaking, to get all that vital information together, would you not agree?

It's critical1's job to find and look at that information before claiming that there's evidence the closures have increased hospitalisations. As it is, it's clear that claim was a load of made-up nonsense, like so many of the supposed criticisms of these closures.

 

[bimble]

ok fair enough. I would still like to know, as someone who wants to see 'the results' of the experiment before deciding either way, which results you are looking forward to seeing. Are you aware of anything Lambeth is planning to include in its quantitative evaluation apart from the reduced pollution on the closed street and the counting of cars?

 

[Beasley]

the general aims of the original Masterplan, make the area nicer to be in, narrow but keep open road

That's the problem: things have moved too quickly without proper notification or discussion. The LJ Plan of 2013 (which was not a "master" plan) did not refer to closing or even narrowing Loughborough Road. Apparently, that only evolved in LJAG's discussions with DSDHA in early 2014. It was included in this scheme but not properly advertised before consultations began in Oct 2014 -- which was bad.

This year, as Cllr Matt Parr put it in his Call-In, the road closure decision "jumps the gun in that it is happening before the completion of the Loughborough Junction Masterplan." The Masterplan began as a hasty attempt to forestall the Higgs Triangle scheme when the road closures scheme was already underway. There was no coordination between the two -- which again is bad.

 

[bimble]

It looks like George Wright, architect of the scheme, is taking a break. Presumably won't be able to make it to the meeting about the closures tomorrow.