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Long Covid

A long article with some suggestions about causes and treatment.

thanks for posting - i find it hard to read things like this as im easily suggestable and reading it make me feel dizzy!
im not as ill as many of the people in that article, but im taking from it though the importance of "breathwork" and will try and do this more routinely

i also feel comforted by the idea this is "just" a form of post viral fatigue, and speaking to some older people i know, postviral shit has happened to lots of people over their lifetimes in different ways with different illnesses
 
A long article with some suggestions about causes and treatment.

This reminds me that I have been meaning to add to this thread that I have also been doing deep, controlled breathing. It feels like it helps, but what with the stuff I'm taking and the ups and downs of long covid it's hard to tell.

In general I'm doing pretty well at the moment. Am pretty much back to where I was last summer where I can cycle somewhere half an hour away (still only half of my usual daily capacity but a massive improvement on where I was in December). Of course I also relapsed after that so I'm not counting my chickens yet and still being pretty careful. Hills, either cycling or walking, are still a problem because breathlessness still sparks fatigue. Thankfully there are a bunch of cycling routes along rivers around me.
 
I've also been meaning to post a link to the right type of niacin, in case anyone wants to try it and can't get through the brainfog to do the research. This is the stuff that I've been using: Vitamin B3 (Niacin) 50mg NE

That company offers free postage if you order over £15 as well, so get some vit d or zinc or something else you wanted at the same time and it's good value.
 
I've also been meaning to post a link to the right type of niacin, in case anyone wants to try it and can't get through the brainfog to do the research. This is the stuff that I've been using: Vitamin B3 (Niacin) 50mg NE

That company offers free postage if you order over £15 as well, so get some vit d or zinc or something else you wanted at the same time and it's good value.
ive been tapering up and took 2 pills/100mg today for the first time
happily ive not been having any flush side-effects
cant yet say a difference, but it cant hurt

in this weeks new symptoms my legs start really aching at exactly 2.30am every night! it wakes me up for a bit. Going to try and take ibuprofene before bed and hope that does something.
 
ive been tapering up and took 2 pills/100mg today for the first time
happily ive not been having any flush side-effects
cant yet say a difference, but it cant hurt

in this weeks new symptoms my legs start really aching at exactly 2.30am every night! it wakes me up for a bit. Going to try and take ibuprofene before bed and hope that does something.

Sorry to hear that. Good idea on starting low and tapering up fo sho. No flush effect or hyperactivity or anything? I tried 12.5mg of no flush niacin once but even that was too strong and made me feel a bit frantic for a while. I think as im on SSRIs and taking some herbal medicine I wont be taking anything else for a while. Just high-dose vitamin D which I take anyway.

I have had weird leg and knee aches on and off and have experienced sudden waking at the same time too. But things come and go. Regarding what this illness is (not read link) it's def something you can recover from, Ive no doubt about it. Especially as more research and treatments come out. In a year or two they will know a huge amount more.

Personally I think avoid ibuprofen before bed as its hard on your stomach and more of a strain on your body/digestion. Ive found camomile tea reallllly good btw before bed and if I wake up during the night. Also peppermint tea after meals has been a regular thing for me. Have you noticed your vitamin stack thing helping symtoms etc btw?

Interestingly I have found myself craving a lot of the foods high in niacin and I eat quite a lot of them anyway. Im no where near being able to cycle let alone up hills yet though :D
 
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Sorry to hear that. Good idea on starting low and tapering up fo sho. No flush effect or hyperactivity or anything? I tried 12.5mg of no flush niacin once but even that was too strong and made me feel a bit frantic for a while.
yes for once ive found something that im not really sensitive to!

i also bought a vitamin b complex from holland and barret and i think taking that two days in a row trigged four days on what felt like the edge of a heart attack! a week later i took half and that still kept me up. Just goes to show how different our bodies and responses can be

i cant say im doing any better for taking vits though- just coasting on the same old same old really - but same old isnt that bad: im up all day, feel like walking some days - im a different person in the sun, so im hoping that will do a lot for me once spring warms up

i'm only one at week nine overall, so I feel like its early days compared to others - remaining positive
and even with people i know who had really long non-covid post-viral fatigue they did get better eventually.
it'll be work and pay that becomes the big issue - luckily furloughed now anyway but thats got its limits
 
gsv was chatting to our former next door neighbour on way back from school and apparently his wife has long covid - I thought I'd seen him around a lot more than her lately. :( Going to be especially tough managing that with six-year-old twins.
 
A long article with some suggestions about causes and treatment.


This is the line that stood out to me;
" The key was the realization that the diaphragm and the nervous system had to be coached back to normal function before further reconditioning could start."

I've been doing this dead simple breathing exercise video - 7 minutes - particularly concentrating on diaphragm muscles


....and I have to say Its making a massive difference.

I find people saying "do this video" annoying, but the difference is real for me.

It might be coincidence in timing of course, but at first doing this video (and a bit of Salutation to the Sun yoga) it made me realise just how bad a state my lungs had go to. I was so used to doing very little exertion and also slouching that my breathing was permanently shallow. This forced me to open my lungs up.

Its not completely better, but marked improvement.

Thats only 7 minutes long - if you fancy something more involved this is great too


i also picked up these nasal drop decongestant at the supermarket, I get a bit bunged up, and just to help my breathing as much as possible

Im also on the vitamin regime with a bit of extra B vits on top

...now if I could just get rid of this ache in my legs :mad: its driving me up the wall - it relentless, 24/7, no stretching helps
 
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Good to know the breathing exercises help ska. Did anyone on this thread try antihistamines? A lot of people had a good response to them according to the long covid forums.
 
Good to know the breathing exercises help ska. Did anyone on this thread try antihistamines? A lot of people had a good response to them according to the long covid forums.
interesting! ive taken a couple of Piriton thinking that maybe thats not helping my breathing (allergies) but havent thought to do it regularly. Will add it to my morning pillbox.
Of all the antihestamines i find prititon the one, usually has an instant effect on me. Some people get drowsy from them, but ive never had that. You can take up to 4 a day with Piriton too.
 
what forum is this Brainaddict? Id like to read about peoples experiences of leg cramps
Not to alarm you but blood clots can be one cause of leg cramps I think. There may be many other reasons too but something to keep an eye on and don't hesitate to call the doctor/ambulance if it gets bad.
 
Not to alarm you but blood clots can be one cause of leg cramps I think. There may be many other reasons too but something to keep an eye on and don't hesitate to call the doctor/ambulance if it gets bad.
yes...this is why im worried...they almost never stop feeling achey, for weeks now, though sometimes more so than other times...worse at night time...no idea what to do. i havent had the vaccine, but the blood clot vaccine talk is worrying me on top of this

i'll call 111 again i think and see what they have to say
thanks mate
 
There are probably a fair few other possibilities. I seem to recall my legs got achey rather easily and often for quite a number of years after I had glandular fever. Most notable at night. It faded away rather gradually in that I cant put a year on when this stopped, but eventually I realised that it wasnt happening anymore.
 
There are probably a fair few other possibilities. I seem to recall my legs got achey rather easily and often for quite a number of years after I had glandular fever. Most notable at night. It faded away rather gradually in that I cant put a year on when this stopped, but eventually I realised that it wasnt happening anymore.
thank you...yeah im trying not to scare myself, and have been lumping it till now, but it is going on for ages and it doesnt feel like a muscle ache...it feels like its in the veins. Better safe than sorry - waiting for a call back from the doctor. If theres a test they can do Id like it done

niacin is meant to be good for this i think? blood thinner? not doing much. I tried a couple of aspirin but it really fucks with my stomach, i had to stop
 
ska invita if you had a deep vein thrombosis (DVT) it would be on one side, painful, your calf may well be swollen. It’s usually associated with risk factors.

In A&E we use the Wells criteria (Wells' Criteria for DVT - MDCalc ), which would give you an idea of risk factors. There is a test, D-dimer blood test, but it can only rule out DVT if it is negative. This is because a lot of other things can raise it. If you score on the Wells Criteria you get sent for an ultrasound, which can confirm or rule out DVT.

Generalised achy legs is not symptomatic of DVT. Niacin will not do anything as you are vanishingly unlikely to be deficient. Be careful, you sound like you might have health anxiety and there are a lot of snake oil salespeople out there x
 
Be careful, you sound like you might have health anxiety and there are a lot of snake oil salespeople out there x
Thanks Edie, I appreciate what you've said about DVT, reassuring.

Yes I am occasionally anxious, but its less anxiety and more wariness. I've never been ill for this long and its all a bit of a winding blind tunnel.
I'm generally health conscious.
I'm calm overall, but also realise that it can be dangerous to just suffer in silence, and there's the trope about men not going to the doctors. I'm trying to be responsible.

*Niacin has come up in clinical trials for long covid as something to try - discussed in this thread. Additionally I noticed in reading up about it it has blood thinning properties and sometimes gets prescribed for such. I am vegan so tend to have B deficiencies.
 
Thanks Edie, I appreciate what you've said about DVT, reassuring.

Yes I am occasionally anxious, but its less anxiety and more wariness. I've never been ill for this long and its all a bit of a winding blind tunnel.
I'm generally health conscious.
I'm calm overall, but also realise that it can be dangerous to just suffer in silence, and there's the trope about men not going to the doctors. I'm trying to be responsible.

*Niacin has come up in clinical trials for long covid as something to try - discussed in this thread. Additionally I noticed in reading up about it it has blood thinning properties and sometimes gets prescribed for such. I am vegan so tend to have B deficiencies.
Good luck to you. I’m sorry you’ve been so poorly for so long. Please God it lifts soon so you can enjoy the spring and summer x
 
Good luck to you. I’m sorry you’ve been so poorly for so long. Please God it lifts soon so you can enjoy the spring and summer x
thank you!
im acutally a lot better, got the breathing way more under control now - its just these legs that are being stubborn! Would like to be more proactive in looking after them
 
What do people think of Paul Garner's recent piece about his long covid recovery? IDK if anyone else has read his previous articles but for me it was SUPER helpful finding an earlier piece last year, my GP found it good too as I was basically her first (non hospitalised etc) young very active very healthy long covid case. It is clear the experience had a big psychological impact on him too, which very much fits with my experience.

It has caused a stirr in the ME/CFS community online I gather. His tone is pretty shirty and tbh it's a personal piece and not very scientific IMO. Im sure plenty of people have relapsed after feeling brill for a few months. That said, Ive found it very helpful recently, especially tips about disconnecting from symptoms and trying to accomodate the virus/illness rather than fight it. You will tire yourself out trying to force yourself to be better, and tbh this does seem to be happening alot given the amount of health anxiety and stress/depression that seems to go hand in hand with long covid.

Here is the piece anyway:

We need to listen to communities of people who have recovered from illness, says Paul Garner

I loved my job, had good friends, and felt as high as a kite on life. Then I got covid-19, and nothing prepared me for what happened next. As the illness developed, I felt so unwell I thought I was dying. The roller-coaster that followed lasted for months, with sudden waves of illness and malaise, like being hit by a cricket bat. I had a foggy head, acutely painful calf, upset stomach, tinnitus, aching all over, breathlessness, dizziness, arthritis in my hands, weird sensation in my skin, extreme emotions, and utter exhaustion and body aches throughout. I had ringing in my ears, intermittent changes to my heartbeat, and dramatic mood swings. After three months I was unable to be out of bed for more than three hours at a stretch. My arms and legs were permanently fizzing. I wondered: was the virus still there? Or did I have ME/CFS?

In those first few months, I found little in the medical literature that helped me deal with the symptoms. I found that I needed to be careful not to overdo things or the illness would echo back. Leaflets from ME/CFS advocacy groups had advice about not overdoing it. I learnt that the exhaustion I experienced after trying to exercise at week seven is termed “post exertional malaise” and is a key symptom of ME/CFS. I read that if I pushed myself, the raised heart rate would make me ill. I decided that dominating the virus did not work. I needed to accommodate it for a while.

While pacing made sense initially, I became obsessive as the months passed in an attempt to avoid my symptoms. I started unconsciously monitoring signals from my body. I sought precipitating causes. I became paralysed with fear: what if I overdid it? I retreated from life. I started telling my friends that long covid was a metabolic disease that had damaged my mitochondria. I wasn’t depressed, but mentally low, and relapses were more common. Then an article in Nature linked me personally to ME/CFS. I fulfilled the Canadian Consensus Criteria for CFS/ME. Seven months after the initial covid-19 I was referred to a CFS/ME specialist. The ME community sent me unsolicited emails about mast cell deactivation, biological causes of my illness, and told me to rest.

I knew the symptoms were real, but somehow these pure biomedical explanations felt wrong. While waiting for the appointment, I cast around my international network of medical evidence specialists for help. I was put in touch with a PhD candidate in psychology from Norway who had completely recovered from post viral fatigue syndrome (CFS/ME) years ago and offered to share the recovery story. The story was very similar: no previous illness, no psychological problems, only long-lasting debilitating symptoms after an infection. I was asked, “are you open to the idea that you can have an impact on your symptoms with your conscious mind?” I thought back to an earlier experience in my 30s with being able regulate my tinnitus after quinine, and said yes, straight away.

This opened the door that led to my recovery. I learnt that our primitive and unconscious defence mechanisms against injury and infection in the brain and other parts of the body sometimes get disturbed, giving false fatigue alarms. A vicious cycle is set up, of dysfunctional autonomic responses being stimulated by our subconscious. These neural tracks become established like tyre tracks in mud. I learnt that I could change the symptoms I was experiencing with my brain, by retraining the bodily reactions with my conscious thoughts, feelings, and behaviour. Over the following weeks, with support, I learnt how to do this. I suddenly believed I would recover completely. I stopped my constant monitoring of symptoms. I avoided reading stories about illness and discussing symptoms, research or treatments by dropping off the Facebook groups with other patients. I spent time seeking joy, happiness, humour, laughter, and overcame my fear of exercise. I started slowly with some graded physical activity on a bicycle. Within two weeks I surprised myself with an hour of Military Fitness training in Sefton Park with my friends. I was overjoyed, with all the great memories of running around the park with my friends. I began to build back my strength.

After a couple of months, my recovery was tested. I developed acute dengue fever while on holiday. The acute illness settled, I returned home, but multiple stresses meant the chronic fatigue symptoms recurred: the muggy headaches, aching muscles, and severe exhaustion. I now knew that I wasn’t physically ill, and with some friendly reminders I knew what to do. One afternoon, I felt as though I had been drugged, and felt so heavy I thought I could not raise my arms from the bed. I knew the symptoms were real, but I needed to distract my brain from them. So I thought, let’s do it: I will either die or recover, I got out of bed and went to Sefton Park to join a military fitness session. It was fabulous, and the exercise pushed the aches and fatigue aside. I slept well and felt better the following day. I was back on track.

I know ME/CFS is associated with a variety of viruses and possibly other factors too, and recognise that the postviral syndromes have a wide spectrum of clinical manifestations. My experience may not be the same as others. I feel that I have looked down the barrel of the ME/CFS gun and disarmed it. I believe that we can unwittingly reinforce, as Pavlov has shown, the dysfunctional autonomic tracks in the brain set up by a virus long gone.

I write this to my fellow covid-19 long haulers whose tissues have healed. I have recovered. I did this by listening to people that have recovered from CFS/ME, not people that are still unwell; and by understanding that our unconscious normal thoughts and feelings influence the symptoms we experience.
 
What do people think of Paul Garner's recent piece about his long covid recovery? IDK if anyone else has read his previous articles but for me it was SUPER helpful finding an earlier piece last year, my GP found it good too as I was basically her first (non hospitalised etc) young very active very healthy long covid case. It is clear the experience had a big psychological impact on him too, which very much fits with my experience.

It has caused a stirr in the ME/CFS community online I gather. His tone is pretty shirty and tbh it's a personal piece and not very scientific IMO. Im sure plenty of people have relapsed after feeling brill for a few months. That said, Ive found it very helpful recently, especially tips about disconnecting from symptoms and trying to accomodate the virus/illness rather than fight it. You will tire yourself out trying to force yourself to be better, and tbh this does seem to be happening alot given the amount of health anxiety and stress/depression that seems to go hand in hand with long covid.

Here is the piece anyway:
this is matching my limited experience - the most notable change for the better has been since doing daily breathing exercises which feels like it has reprogrammed my breathing. whenever breathlessness creeps back I do a five minute routine, and it improves again (unless I am feeling tired).

a hopeful read.

reading the symptoms list felt reassuring too, especially re calves:
"foggy head, acutely painful calf, upset stomach, tinnitus, aching all over, breathlessness, dizziness, arthritis in my hands, "
i have all of that other than tinnitus

in general i am trying to mind-over-matter it, and not dwell, but somedays (today in fact) it overpowers any positive thinking
 
Of course. Same here but much less past few months tbh. Then again ive been ill for 1 year+. Are you getting any professional psychological support? Counselling/CBT etc? Might be worth asking local charities who do stuff if money is an issue. My experience is the NHS is pretty woeful at this cos you have to do about 3 appointments to even be considered for CBT and even then it's very short term whats offered.

Youd imagine psychological support would be a key part of the long covid clinics but hey. Maybe it is in some places. Def worth getting a referral to yours btw, ask your GP as they may be helpful with the leg pain etc. But yeah dont rush yourself it's going to take a while to get back to more like normal. Some of the physiotherapy and getting people up is def aimed at peeps who were hospitalised and still in a really bad way so may not be appropriate, but if you are gentle and patient it's worth trying stuff, while accepting there may be ups and downs.

Btw, camomile tea is the boss if you just want some quick calming btw! Im smashing the tea pigs as my treat.
 
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Of course. Same here but much less past few months tbh. Then again ive been ill for 1 year+. Are you getting any professional psychological support? Counselling/CBT etc? Might be worth asking local charities who do stuff if money is an issue. My experience is the NHS is pretty woeful at this cos you have to do about 3 appointments to even be considered for CBT and even then it's very short term whats offered.

Youd imagine psychological support would be a key part of the long covid clinics but hey. Maybe it is in some places. Def worth getting a referral to yours btw, ask your GP as they may be helpful with the leg pain etc. But yeah dont rush yourself it's going to take a while to get back to more like normal. Some of the physiotherapy and getting people up is def aimed at peeps who were hospitalised and still in a really bad way so may not be appropriate, but if you are gentle and patient it's worth trying stuff, while accepting there may be ups and downs.

Btw, camomile tea is the boss if you just want some quick calming btw! Im smashing the tea pigs as my treat.
im nowhere near that long - all power to you riklet
 
Paul Garners about turn was pretty irritating
Long covid is hardly understood yet and its unhelpful for him to wade in with "it's all in your mind, folks" just bc he feels better

Right now I'm pretty exhausted again after a period of much better energy and have joint pain and a lot of internal tremors/neuropathy and a very low mood and brain fog

Who knows if its long covid (11 months in)or just stress from work/life

But I know being told it's in my mind is not helpful

I think I need to get back on vitamin regime and be gentle with myself. It has eased before and it will ease again
 
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