London Student protests - Wed 8th Dec+ Thurs 9th

[Lock&Light]

For someone who takes others to task for what you perceive to be pedantry, you're being rather pedantic.

I must be picking it up from you.

 

[detective-boy]

When they put on the uniform and get they swept away in the tribal tide of agro on a demonstration then the rationality leaves. Striking someone with blows to the head is just dumb, its career threatening and even jail threatening in the day of handset cameras and youtube. But still in the febrile heat of battle they do it. You can train people out of getting into that state, but it takes will from on high.

A psychologist would undoubtedly agree that there is an aspect of group think that takes over in such situations (and, having experienced it, I know that it does and that it is difficult to maintain individual perspective) but the vast majority of officers are able to maintain an appropriate attitude and act perfectly properly. In fact, just like there are examples of soldiers being reluctant to kill the enemy on an individual level, even when participating in an attack on a particular objective, I have observed officers reluctant to use significant force during a public order operation even when it is perfectly justifiable on an individual level (on one occasion resulting in a person lawfully arrested for a serious offence being freed and one of the arresting officers significantly injured).

In terms of the use of force, there is a distinct difference between using force as an individual, on your individual decision and using force as a part of a team deploying a particular tactic, that tactic (and inevitably the use of some force) being decided by an operational commander. That whole question has not been properly understood by senior police officers in terms of their modern equipment and tactics (it wasn't a particular issue when police officers only had trucheons and large scale tactics were difficult due to poor communication) and it has certainly not been built into training (though Denis O'Connor's report after G20 mentioned on it if I remember rightly)

 

[detective-boy]

Time and again, for fucking decades, we have seen cops get away with battering people with impunity.

I'm not sure we have, certainly not on the same scale / with the same level of injury anyway. The type of baton now available is very different from the old truncheon ... and we are seeing far more "baton charges" than used to be the case as tactics have changed too.

 

[dylans]

It is absolutely standard practice for different hospitals to be allocated for casualties from different groups. Usually it would be the two groups involved in protest and counterprotest (e.g. ADL and anti-fascists) or different football supporters but where it is likely to be protestors v police then that would be the categorisation. The idea is that it reduces the potential for things to kick off again in the hospital (between those in the waiting area usually, not the actual patients (though that has happened!))

I wish someone had told that to the cops who threw me in a cell with a BNP skinhead for 6 hours following a troops out march in the 1980s. Ever spend 6 hours in a tiny cell without speaking to the guy growling at you in the corner.? By unspoken agreement we would swap an hour at a time staring out of the gap in the door. Longest 6 hours I ever spent.

 

[ernestolynch]

Did he try to bum you?

 

[dylans]

I'm not sure we have, certainly not on the same scale / with the same level of injury anyway. The type of baton now available is very different from the old truncheon ... and we are seeing far more "baton charges" than used to be the case as tactics have changed too.

Since Thatchers days at least. I remember the battle for Orgreave (when several miners recieved serious debilitating head injuries) when the officers in charge were shouting "bodies not heads at their troops" and were entirely ignored. In several reported cases beating miners so badly that their (admittedly old style) truncheons broke.

 

[detective-boy]

This needs to be viewed.

Not if you've got some recently painted woodwork you could observe instead it doesn't ...

 

[dylans]

Did he try to bum you?

He seemed as uneasy about the situation as me. As I said we kind of shared shifts staring out the peep hole. At one point they threw a drunk in with us who proceeded to piss himself and we both looked at each other and shared a smile/grimace. (I felt like a traitor for sharing a smile with him for years afterwards.)

 

[detective-boy]

Be assured that if GP has a photo of someone breaking a window the cops do too.

Absolute bollocks. Strangely enough the handful of police photograhers present, even with todays level of evidence gathering teams, capture but a fraction of the specific crimes (particularly as they tend not to be in the places where non-police photgraphers are). Very large numbers of people have been, and will continue to be, convicted of serious crimes on the basis, often partially and sometimes entirely, of images taken by non-police photographers and in the public domain.

 

[dylans]

Not if you've got some recently painted woodwork you could observe instead it doesn't ...

Don't be so fucking flippant. That footage is terrifying and quite disgraceful. 500 people recently died in a crowded bridge in Cambodia in a crush like that. The actions of the police in that footage could have led to deaths.

 

[dylans]

Absolute bollocks. Strangely enough the handful of police photograhers present, even with todays level of evidence gathering teams, capture but a fraction of the specific crimes (particularly as they tend not to be in the places where non-police photgraphers are). Very large numbers of people have been, and will continue to be, convicted of serious crimes on the basis, often partially and sometimes entirely, of images taken by non-police photographers and in the public domain.

well with the tabloid press baying for blood the cops have a ready made supply of eager assistants to help them out

 

[discokermit]

Since Thatchers days at least. I remember the battle for Orgreave (when several miners recieved serious debilitating head injuries) when the officers in charge were shouting "bodies not heads at their troops" and were entirely ignored. In several reported cases beating miners so badly that their (admittedly old style) truncheons broke.

orgreave, wapping, the beanfield, poll tax. db is just a fucking liar.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

In fact, just like there are examples of soldiers being reluctant to kill the enemy on an individual level, even when participating in an attack on a particular objective

Have you got any examples of this psychological 'reluctance' in a soldier? How do you know what's going on in the mind of anyone, let alone a soldier in battle?

The whole point of intensive military training is taking away that doubt - any soldier who shows reluctance will not a soldier make.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Have you got any examples of this psychological 'reluctance' in a soldier? How do you know what's going on in the mind of anyone, let alone a soldier in battle?

1st world war, 2nd world war. Soldiers shooting to miss, thousands and thousands of them.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

1st world war, 2nd world war. Soldiers shooting to miss, thousands and thousands of them.

Thousands who received very little military training, if any at all.

 

[detective-boy]

(because the military were/are trained not to let the red mist take over).

Yes. Of course they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

I take no issue with the fact that red mists exists. I take no issue with the fact that soldiers are trained not to let it take them over. And that for the most part their training works, the more so the more highly trained the particular unit and their supervisors.

But I also claim that the police are trained not to let it take them over too. And that for the most part their training works, the more so the more highly trained the particular unit and their supervisors. And that sometimes both soldiers and police succumb to it.

It is your absolute failure to acknowledge that soldiers ever fuck up and you constant comparison of their 100% reliability with the police who you plainly consider a bunch of amateur fuckwits that leads to me concluding that you are (a) pro-military and (b) anti-police. Not any "assumption" on my part - the fact of what you write.

 

[claphamboy]

It is absolutely standard practice for different hospitals to be allocated for casualties from different groups. Usually it would be the two groups involved in protest and counterprotest (e.g. ADL and anti-fascists) or different football supporters but where it is likely to be protestors v police then that would be the categorisation. The idea is that it reduces the potential for things to kick off again in the hospital (between those in the waiting area usually, not the actual patients (though that has happened!))

This should be communicated to all ambulance staff involved in the operation prior to the event at briefings ... but sometimes ambulances from elsewhere get involved by mistake (which may be the case here, where it seems to have been stationary some distance away and, thus, may not have been part of the planned operation and, thus, not aware of the plan).

In such a situation it is absolutely understandable that if a "wrong" casualty turns up at a particular hospital then they should be redirected to the "right" one ... but that if there is a critical medical need then that should be addressed immediately (as seems to have happened here). What you need to know before condemning the action of the hospital is exactly what happened at Chelsea and Westminster and what the person knew about the situation when suggesting they go elsewhere. From what Alfie's mother has said when interviewed on the news, it doesn't sound like it was more than an initial suggestion they were at the wrong place followed by the ambulance crew (robustly!) explaining there was a critical medical need and the hospital then dealing with it.

I was outraged by that report about the hospital, but now it makes sense, thanks for enlightening us on this particular point.

 

[claphamboy]

I wish someone had told that to the cops who threw me in a cell with a BNP skinhead for 6 hours following a troops out march in the 1980s. Ever spend 6 hours in a tiny cell without speaking to the guy growling at you in the corner.? By unspoken agreement we would swap an hour at a time staring out of the gap in the door. Longest 6 hours I ever spent.

Fucking hell that sounds like a nightmare. /

 

[detective-boy]

Anyone seen any of these 'snooker balls', btw?

There's a pink at the feet of one of a horse in one of the pictures of the mounted police advancing.

 

[detective-boy]

no, 'kettling' a very specific logistical operation. Containment is containment, a cordon is a cordon, kettling requires the application of a pre-planned strategy of containment involving police cordons, resulting in a mass of peole being held unlawfully and against their will in an ever tighter pen for a long period of time before being released individually to be photographed and have their details taken.

Er .. yes. That has been done for many years in particular situations.

Please don't think that you have identified anything new. You have simply invented a pathetic new "street" word for it and, by doing so, you are confusing the (perfectly reasonable and necessary) debate about it's use.

All this was explained in the judical review of the mayday 2001 kettle by the various gold and silver commanders.

Which "Judicial Review" was this. Please link to their report. (ETA: Cancel that - having read one of your later posts I think I have worked out what you are talking about)

Desk jockeys may be able to deal with drunken assaults and minor staurday night skirmishes but don't pretend you know the workings of your superiors.

Mate, your ignorance of police public order tactics is patently obvious. I suggest you wind your neck in now before you become even more of a laughing stock ...

 

[Mr.Bishie]

There's a pink at the feet of one of a horse in one of the pictures of the mounted police advancing.

Nah, you're seeing the things you want to see - it's not the whole story.

 

[discokermit]

I was outraged by that report about the hospital, but now it makes sense, thanks for enlightening us on this particular point.

it makes sense to route different factions to different hospitals, what is completely cunty is to stand there arguing an unconscious teenager with brain injuries should get back in the ambulance and go somewhere else.

and here's the reason he was at that hospital, according to the bbc, "A spokesman for Chelsea and Westminster Hospital confirmed a decision had been taken to treat officers there and civilians in other hospitals.

But he said because so many protesters ended up being injured some were treated at the hospital"

so, the only hospital not overrun was the one treating the police.

cunts.

 

[detective-boy]

Kettling is a violent attack.

How so?

It is a restrictive tactic, and clearly force is used if people attempt to leave it ... but in and off itself it is no more "violent" than, say, clearing an area around a suspect package, including keeping people inside buildings in "safe haven" or many other similar situations.

 

[revlon]

How so?

It is a restrictive tactic, and clearly force is used if people attempt to leave it ... but in and off itself it is no more "violent" than, say, clearing an area around a suspect package, including keeping people inside buildings in "safe haven" or many other similar situations.

well it's legally recognised as detention short of arrest. So your other comparisons are bullshit.

 

[detective-boy]

I can see some logic in containment, but to keep pushing the crowd and shouting ‘go back’ when they know there’s nowhere for them to go because the other end is another load of coppers doing the same.

That assumes that the unit moving the crowd back on one side actually know that. It is an issue for commanders but it is absolutely not beyond belief that the actual unit concerned have no better idea of what is going on at the back of the crowd than the protestors directly in front of them do. (In the tedious 7 minute clip posted a couple of pages ago you see the Inspector (orange tabs) climb on to the wall when it became apparent that the crowd were no longer moving back and were saying there was nowhere to go). You can clearly see him looking what is happening at the back and, so far as can be seen from the footage after that, his unit stop pushing the crowd back at that point.

It is also worthy of note that despite shouts of "There is nowhere to go" from the very start, the crowd do somehow manage to move back some considerable distance ... so there clearly was somewhere to go.

Whoever thinks that is a good idea is a complete twat IMO.

I'm not sure anyone thinks what you describe is a good idea.

But I'm not sure that what you describe is what happens in the majority of cases.

 

[dylans]

How so?

It is a restrictive tactic, and clearly force is used if people attempt to leave it ... but in and off itself it is no more "violent" than, say, clearing an area around a suspect package, including keeping people inside buildings in "safe haven" or many other similar situations.

Oh come on. Did you watch the footage that you so glibly dismissed as "watching paint dry"? the cops continuing to push a crowd with nowhere to go, from both sides, the crowd getting more and more panicked and terrified, the use of horses in that dense space. .Pure intimidation and demoralisation nothing less. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour and it is only by luck that people weren't suffocated to death.

 

[audiotech]

Not if you've got some recently painted woodwork you could observe instead it doesn't ...

My comment wasn't addressed to a plank of one.

 

[revlon]

It is also worthy of note that despite shouts of "There is nowhere to go" from the very start, the crowd do somehow manage to move back some considerable distance ... so there clearly was somewhere to go.

yes into a tighter and tighter kettle. They cannot go anywhere else.

 

[discokermit]

and it is only by luck that people weren't suffocated to death.

they don't care. remember hillsborough?

 

[detective-boy]

At the judical review at the high court for mayday 2001 the reason the police gave for containing people for such a long period was that there were crowds of protestors outside the kettle who they couldn't get into the kettle therefore were unwilling to let people go home until everybody was kettled.

I'm not sure that is an accurate summary of their position. Perhaps you could link to the actual part of the evidence that you are referring to.