London Student protests - Wed 8th Dec+ Thurs 9th

[dylans]

You could have added "... necessary because the violent thugs in the protests attack firefighters called to extinguish fires they start,".

But you wouldn't ... because clearly any violence used against the firefighters and the paramedics is by the police, not the lickle, lambykins, peaceful protestors ...

Do you have any evidence of firefighters being attacked.? I ask because the same was said following the poll tax riot and was shown to be false.

in the same way that the police now have to employ medics because the violent thugs in the protests attack paramedics called to deal with injured people (police or protestors)

Oh yes. We have seen the police medics in action.

Perhaps he was merely applying anaesthetic but from the angle of that arm swing I think it is pretty clear where he is about to apply his medical expertise. Please explain to me where in the hippocratic oath it allows for medics to beat the shit out of people. Here is a copy to help you out.

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug. (or the policeman's club)
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

(special police medic amendment.. I will also beat the living daylights of anyone standing in my way, push disabled people out of wheelchairs and cause serious head injuries to students whom I deem guilty of the crime of demonstrating)

 

[ymu]

They're not doctors dylans - just thugs with some first aid training.

 

[Refused as fuck]

Looking at it positively (from the pig's point of view), at least you'll get a basic level of medical attention after you get pulled out of your wheelchair and throttled with a baton.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Just what this place needs ... another conspiraloon.

You don't do irony then?

Louis MacNeice

 

[dylans]

Here are two more "medics" about to administer "anaesthetic"on patients I am truly humbled by their commitment to patient care.

 

[frogwoman]

they were only beating them to calm them down though.

 

[Pickman's model]

Poor little piggies murdering cunts.

what they need's a damn good whacking.

 

[19sixtysix]

they were only beating them to calm them down though.

Na. Its job creation

Beat one
Mend one
Beat one
Mend one
Beat ....

 

[revlon]

You state that they are illegal. That cannot be said short of on the basis of a Court decision. The use of containment tactics has been acknowledged by the courts as a lawful tactic, subject to certain guidance. The consistent failure of those who argue against it to acknowledge that fact undermines their position fatally. Containment is NOT illegal per se. Legal fact.

And whilst I would agree that there is scope for individual officers to make individual decisions to let people out in plainly exceptional circumstances, it is ridiculous to expect that anyone who asks nicely to leave should be allowed to do so as that would defeat the purpose of the containment.

at the same time the only real justification for depriving someone of their liberty, their freedom of assembly and association under these circumstances is breach of the peace (or indeed fear of breach of the peace).

Breach of the peace is neither a crime nor a piece of judical legislation, it is in fact a situation.

A copper trying to hide behind the law to justify police operational tactics is on very shaky ground indeed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No true, you have to also be middle class, sign-on and go around eating out of skips.

Hmm, I'm not middle class, I don't sign on and I've never eaten out of a skip.

Prejudiced, much?

 

[butchersapron]

You've mistaken the future he's planned for you - for everyone - with the present.

 

[rekil]

they were only beating them to calm them down though.

This one's so calmed down he's fallen into snoozyland. The officers are going to take him home and tuck him in.

 

[frogwoman]

To be fair my housemate's brother's flatmate was an anarchist who did just that - he was also an art student though and went around smashing cars up in the names of "art"

dunno how serious he was about his anarchism though, from all acounts he just used it as an excuse to nick things

 

[frogwoman]

This one's so calmed down he's fallen into snoozyland. The officers are going to take him home and tuck him in.

How nice of them

 

[ViolentPanda]

Perhaps that is because there are millions more interactions between the police and the public than between soldiers and the public ...

So, given the context of the post this is in reply to, you're claiming that it's the volume of police/public interactions that make the police less able to control the red mist, then?

Or did you mean to say something less ill-judged, but failed?

 

[Pickman's model]

Perhaps that is because there are millions more interactions between the police and the public than between soldiers and the public ...

but police are supposed to serve the public and soldiers are supposed to kill them. how can you explain the relative lack of casualties per thousand encounters between the army and the public compared to the number of encounters between the police and the public?

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's often the case that non-fatal force is used on the basis of information that with hindsight turns out to be incorrect.

I have personally CS sprayed someone who I honestly believed was pulling a knife as they were being aggressive and non-compliant...

A fairly standard response, as any 1st-year psychology student can show you (especially if you're chasing them).

had a hand in their pocket, were telling me they were going to stab me and then pulled out something which was about 6" long and had a metallic glint ... which turned out to be a mobile phone, held in a way that a knife would have been held.

In other words, you reacted in a manner consonant with self-preservation. So far, so understandable.
Not consonant with the example I gave, though, so not really like with like.

You persistent failure to acknowledge that in the real world force must be able to be used on incomplete information totally undermines your position.

I haven't "failed to acknowledge" anything of the sort. I'm well aware that force has to be used on incomplete information. I'm concerned with the degree of force, which should, if you're (i.e. the police officer) not in a state of over-arousal, be consonant with the threat.
To fail to acknowledge that licences the use of excessive force purely on the off-chance of a physical threat.

You are arguing for something which is simply not possible.

Actually, I wasn't arguing the point you're attributing to me at all.

And when confronted with the dilemma questions that demonstrate that you always duck out of them.

Only in d-b world. I always answer your posts pertinently, and you almost always hone in on a single sentence, de-contextualise it, and then reply to that de-contextualised point.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In dealing with some minority groups you have a point.

In dealing with college and university students you do not. The vast majority of officers have been students / are students (part-time) / have children or close relatives who are students / have young children who are going to become students.

Again you take a valid point and extend it beyond breaking point.

So they're neither temporally or ideologically alienated, the institutional culture of their job has exerted no effects at all that have assisted in alienating them?

I'd love to see the basis for your claim explicated beyond "they're not alienated from students because they've been students, know students or are related to students", if you wouldn't mind taking the podium.

 

[Pickman's model]

So they're neither temporally or ideologically alienated, the institutional culture of their job has exerted no effects at all that have assisted in alienating them?

I'd love to see the basis for your claim explicated beyond "they're not alienated from students because they've been students, know students or are related to students", if you wouldn't mind taking the podium.

vp

he's fucked in the head

 

[ViolentPanda]

Here are two more "medics" about to administer "anaesthetic"on patients I am truly humbled by their commitment to patient care.

Interesting photo.
Check out the faces of the uniforms as compared to the civvies. What do you see?

 

[IC3D]

My theory is police medics are really psychopathic nutters the more wimpy cops hang around for protection when they get a bit roughed up by protesters.

 

[ViolentPanda]

they were only beating them to calm them down though.

If I tried that on Greebo, she'd divorce me, and rightly too!

 

[ymu]

My theory is police medics are really psychopathic nutters the more wimpy cops hang around for protection when they get a bit roughed up by protesters.

They get lots of volunteers for big public order demos, and presumably there's a guaranteed number of 'medics' included. They probably take the first aid course to improve their chances of being paid to beat people up.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You've mistaken the future he's planned for you - for everyone - with the present.

So I'm going to be signing on and eating out of skips, and as a further insult, I'll also be middle class?

A true Dystopia awaits!

 

[ViolentPanda]

This one's so calmed down he's fallen into snoozyland. The officers are going to take him home and tuck him in.

I see they're keeping scores on their helmets.

 

[ViolentPanda]

vp

he's fucked in the head

I'm not disputing that, but I'd like to see whether he does actually know what he's talking about, or whether he's blarneying on the subject of alienation.

I've just checked out wikipedia etc, so I can tell if he's been cribbing.

 

[IC3D]

They get lots of volunteers for big public order demos, and presumably there's a guaranteed number of 'medics' included. They probably take the first aid course to improve their chances of being paid to beat people up.

I really can believe that that theory, obviously its preventative medicine.

 

[detective-boy]

Brightened up version of that video

"So you admit you have tampered with this footage. Members of the jury, you can no longer rely on anything in this footage as it has, by admission, been changed"

(I know that is bollocks actually, but that is to quote from a defence barrister at the Old Bailey where all that had been done was brighten the footage ... )

Unfortunately this footage also misses the actual unseating of Jody from his wheelchair so it remains tha case that on the basis of the information in the public domain it seems unlikely that there is any lawful reason for the use of force ... but there are gaps in what is know to be filled before you can reach a definitive conclusion ...

 

[Streathamite]

to be fair, i can believe it as he plainly knows nothing about the lib dems despite having joined them 12 months ago

very true!

 

[detective-boy]

possibly agent provocateurs at the demo? this video piece is too short to be sure either way I think, but nonetheless:
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2010/12/agents-provocateurs.html

Good plan. Ignore the plain issues which need to be challenged / discussed / addressed and wander off on some conspiraloon flight of fancy ...