ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
In high pressure situations involving unrest? Really?
London Student protests - Wed 8th Dec+ Thurs 9th
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
An insight into how you're viewed.
It's often the case that non-fatal force is used on the basis of information that with hindsight turns out to be incorrect.
I have personally CS sprayed someone who I honestly believed was pulling a knife as they were being aggressive and non-compliant, had a hand in their pocket, were telling me they were going to stab me and then pulled out something which was about 6" long and had a metallic glint ... which turned out to be a mobile phone, held in a way that a knife would have been held.
You persistent failure to acknowledge that in the real world force must be able to be used on incomplete information totally undermines your position. You are arguing for something which is simply not possible. And when confronted with the dilemma questions that demonstrate that you always duck out of them.
audiotech
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that's good audiotech at least. Unlike you lot, chanting "splitters" at people
"You lot?"
As I've pointed out to you already, I left the SWeeP's around twenty years ago.
I can assure you, I've never chanted "splitters" at anyone, except when mimicking the specific Monty Python sketch your post mockingly alludes to.
You state that they are illegal. That cannot be said short of on the basis of a Court decision. The use of containment tactics has been acknowledged by the courts as a lawful tactic, subject to certain guidance. The consistent failure of those who argue against it to acknowledge that fact undermines their position fatally. Containment is NOT illegal per se. Legal fact.
And whilst I would agree that there is scope for individual officers to make individual decisions to let people out in plainly exceptional circumstances, it is ridiculous to expect that anyone who asks nicely to leave should be allowed to do so as that would defeat the purpose of the containment.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This series of tautologies is very revealing. Very apt in fact.
No-one who knew what they were talking about would argue that that was unusual in the early-mid 80s.In the mid '80s I drank in a boozer which got overrun by coppers, after an ex-copper took over the licence. The amount of boasting you'd hear about "scruffy students" and "wogs" having been given a kicking was quite nauseating.
Obviously, these were either just "bad apples", or they were drunkenly telling lies to each other, because such a thing couldn't possibly be a standard mode of behaviour.
No-one who knew what they were talking about would seek to argue that nothing has changed.
In dealing with some minority groups you have a point.
In dealing with college and university students you do not. The vast majority of officers have been students / are students (part-time) / have children or close relatives who are students / have young children who are going to become students.
Again you take a valid point and extend it beyond breaking point.
I would acknowledge that ... if I thought for a moment that you included my personal testimony as a valid source of evidence.
Which you, and many others here, patently do not.
But for personal testimony to be discussed / accepted by someone else it must include objective descriptions of what was seen / heard / done, not simply a statement of what was perceived by the person giving it.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
How can coppers possibly identify with students, regardless of whether they have been one (and they have all been school students) when they start on £25k fresh out of school. FFS! The only other students that start on that sort of money are doctors, and cunts who work in the city. They have no fucking idea what the real world looks like for most of us.
Failing to understand patently obvious posts by me is making you look like a total idiot.
audiotech
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Frankly, I'm not that bothered with your defence of police tactics, that are clearly raising concerns amongst a sizeable section of the populace. Specifically, people who would normally be supportive of the police.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
No. Facts are facts. But before we can know what they are there has to be an inquiry or investigation unless we personally witnessed everything of any relevance to the situation.
Society, through politicians. Usually the judiciary are appointed as that is what they are in their day jobs.
Only if they commit an offence justifying arrest, otherwise they would be sued for unlawful arrest. But they would not be "independent" anyway - they are evidence gatherers for one side.
Where have I said the police should be independent. In any challenge to the lawfulness of their actions they clearly are anything but independent.
Facts, and particularly the sort of 'facts' you're trying to claim authority for, are observations seen from a certain perspective; your choice of perspective is consistently craven.
Laughable made no less so by your example; remember that leading light of the judiciary who thought that the retention of capital punishment would have solved some high profile miscarriages of justice?
This goes so far beyond naivety as to become bare faced lying; the only police officers ever to exceed their powers of arrest have been sued for doing so? Here were are back with your 'the police as a force never instigate violence' claptrap.
It's almost as if your every statement is made to make you look more ridiculous and undermine your defense of the police further.
Louis MacNeice
Of course none of your perfect soliders have ever fired or used any other force on the basis of something that, with hindsight, tunred out to be wrong have they ...
You just can't stop yourself having an anti-police / pro-soldier pop can you ...
So that is one example that has been publicised (despite hundreds of photographers and protestors with cameraphones just looking for the opportunity to get their pic / footage on YouTube) ... out of many thousands of officers on duty.
I think it proves that things have improved rather than being the basis for the Commissioner resigning ... :rolleyes
They don't. Moron.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Where on earth did I suggest that?Only a paranoid, conspiracy obsessed idiot could claim that a Press Release site to the media is somehow evidence of cover-up and conspiracy ...
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
I'm quite happy to include your personal testimony in any discussion; what I'm not willing to do is to let you claim it as some sort of universal proof. With regard the discussion of the police instigating violence, you are trying to say this never happens (I don't have to post the quote yet again do I?); you include the oversight you gained as a senior officer to back up this universal claim.
Myself and others have said this is not our experience; we are not trying to claim the universal position that the police always instigate violence, rather the acceptance that it does happen sometimes. You see how personal testimony is being used for two very different purposes; one to close down debate the other to open it up?
Your trouble, as I pointed out previously, is that you start from a set of assumptions re. the police and then fit the evidence (or dismiss it) according to the demands of those assumptions; it's not really in the true spirit of detection.
Louis MacNeice
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
No I haven't you lying prick.but it is perfectly acceptable as DB has kindly explained to us all
makes me physically sick and again, fair play to the ambulance driver
I have explained it is perfectly standard practice. And that that practice is founded on the very sensible basis that it makes sense not to let two opposing factions gather together again in a fucking hospital when a bit of pre-planning means that they can be in entirely equivalent different hospitals. And that if someone with serious injuries turns up at the "wrong" one because of a fuck up they should of course be treated (as they invariably are).
(And I note that there has been NOTHING to show that anything more than "You're at the wrong hospital mate" , "This guys really bad, he needs emergency treatment now", "OK then, lets have a look ... bring him through" happened here. But then aagin, why let the truth get in the way of an urban myth ...)
And the Health and Safety Risk Assessment of allowing rampaging mobs to do whatever they like ...
You could have added "... necessary because the violent thugs in the protests attack firefighters called to extinguish fires they start, in the same way that the police now have to employ medics because the violent thugs in the protests attack paramedics called to deal with injured people (police or protestors)".
But you wouldn't ... because clearly any violence used against the firefighters and the paramedics is by the police, not the lickle, lambykins, peaceful protestors ...
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
No I haven't you lying prick.
...I note that there has been NOTHING to show that anything more than "You're at the wrong hospital mate" , "This guys really bad, he needs emergency treatment now", "OK then, lets have a look ... bring him through" happened here. But then aagin, why let the truth get in the way of an urban myth ...)
By the same token what you've written above could be described as a police myth, given that there's nothing to show that this is what happened.
These aren't facts DB, and you trying to claim them as such - or to dismiss them as myth - makes you look narrow minded and desperate.
Louis MacNeice
Just what this place needs ... another conspiraloon.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Wut?You could have added "... necessary because the violent thugs in the protests attack firefighters called to extinguish fires they start, in the same way that the police now have to employ medics because the violent thugs in the protests attack paramedics called to deal with injured people (police or protestors)".
But you wouldn't ... because clearly any violence used against the firefighters and the paramedics is by the police, not the lickle, lambykins, peaceful protestors ...
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Just what this place needs ... another conspiraloon.
Fortunately you're not in charge of the admissions policy.
Though if it ever came to that I can't say I'd object to a 'one conspiraloon in, one pig out' rule on the door.
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