Life after the SWP?

[audiotech]

What I mean when I say the community work involves legwork that the SWP et al. Would rather not do is that it means racing far too many uncomfortable truths. Ones that really should cause SWP members to question the validity if their approach and their organisation.

On the other hand, approaching "organised workers" whilst obviously hard graft, is familiar and comfortable territory.

Presently I'm highly critical of the SWP, but I recall there was Rock Against Racism, and ANL mk 1, where we went out on the streets, on the estates, involving working class youth, as with the RTW campaign and the unemployed back then. I've mentioned the poll tax and there was miners support groups, organised locally, which had close links to the mining community. Now there's the bedroom tax and a SWP member, who I have some respect for, is leading that campaign presently and organising meetings locally on housing estates here. You just want to see what you want to see.

 

[chilango]

Presently I'm highly critical of the SWP, but I recall there was Rock Against Racism, and ANL mk 1, where we went out on the streets, on the estates, involving working class youth, as with the RTW campaign and the unemployed back then. I've mentioned the poll tax and there was miners support groups, organised locally, which had close links to the mining community. Now there's the bedroom tax and a SWP member, who I have some respect for, is leading that campaign presently and organising meetings locally on housing estates here. You just want to see what you want to see.

I'm not saying no SWP members do this stuff. I know they do. That's not my point.

 

[xslavearcx]

I doubt I'll make myself popular be saying so, but football is clearly a capitalist-inspired distraction to divert the working class away from revolution.



Sounds like you're discovering this for yourself...

Are you trying to be ironic here or something?? If not, id say, what activity isnt a capitalist diversion away from the real issues of implementing fullcommunism, such as spending times on forums for instance?

Also, if all one thought and acted about was towards the end of the revolution, i reckon most lefties would be burnt out quicksmart...

 

[audiotech]

You've mentioned "legwork" to do with "community work". Those campaigns I've mentioned weren't a walk in the park, so what point are you making? Is it the usual parrot fashion, localist, build a "left-wing BNP", stand for elections operation we keep hearing and that has been tried, has achieved some results, but presently what?

 

[xslavearcx]

as long as action aint focussed soley on paper sales which to me exemplifies nihilism as praxis..

 

[andysays]

SpineyNorman is involved in that andysays

Thanks, I'll have to ask him to tell me more...

 

[frogwoman]

the left (including the IWCA) get some stuff right but they also get a hell of a lot of stuff wrong.

as far as paper sales etc i actually agree with the need to have a street presence and to sell literature etc. i don't think this is necessarily a problem however when it becomes the sole focus of activity ...

 

[chilango]

You've mentioned "legwork" to do with "community work". Those campaigns I've mentioned weren't a walk in the park, so what point are you making? Is it the usual parrot fashion, localist, build a "left-wing BNP", stand for elections operation we keep hearing and that has been tried, has achieved some results, but presently what?

I know they weren't.

...and no, I'm not arguing to build a "left-wing BNP". Far from it.

 

[chilango]

the left (including the IWCA) get some stuff right but they also get a hell of a lot of stuff wrong.

as far as paper sales etc i actually agree with the need to have a street presence and to sell literature etc. i don't think this is necessarily a problem however when it becomes the sole focus of activity ...

I think it's important have histories and ideas and interpretations/analyses of issues available for people to read/discuss/use.

I don't think the cliched lefty papersale is the best way of doing that.

Things like the WEA, w/c movement libraries, reading groups, community cinemas, and good agitprop all have a more effective role to play.

I even think lefty papers have a role. Just not the one Lenin saw anymore.

 

[xslavearcx]

the left (including the IWCA) get some stuff right but they also get a hell of a lot of stuff wrong.

as far as paper sales etc i actually agree with the need to have a street presence and to sell literature etc. i don't think this is necessarily a problem however when it becomes the sole focus of activity ...

aye definately, was being a bit stupid there and i agree with chilangos last post there...

 

[andysays]

Are you trying to be ironic here or something??

Err, no, I'm being totally serious. Would it be easier for you to recognise it if I substitute, say, the Olympics for football? Same shit, at least in my opinion.

If not, id say, what activity isnt a capitalist diversion away from the real issues of implementing fullcommunism, such as spending times on forums for instance?

The difference with spending time on forums such as this one is that there is a least the possibility of exchanging opinion and experience which we can then apply and benefit from in our wider lives. Dedicated following of spectator sport is, in my opinion, as alienating and counter-revolutionary as religion.

Also, if all one thought and acted about was towards the end of the revolution, i reckon most lefties would be burnt out quicksmart...

That's true, but not recreations are equally innocent or helpful. Some are positively reactionary or destructive (BTW, I'm not trying to claim any sort of revolutionary purity in always avoiding these - I'm as susceptible to them as anyone, unfortunately).

This is probably a distraction from the main point of this thread, so I'll leave it there...

 

[xslavearcx]

Don't think its neccesarily a distraction from the main point of the thread since we are talking about modes of organising following the event of the manifest failuire of the biggest organisation in the far left in its organising approach...

The difference with spending time on forums such as this one is that there is a least the possibility of exchanging opinion and experience which we can then apply and benefit from in our wider lives. Dedicated following of spectator sport is, in my opinion, as alienating and counter-revolutionary as religion.

I'd say its footballs totally neutral in regards to how it fits into a revolutionary schema. Sure, if ones relationship to football as a fan is as a passive spectator then yes its problematic in the way that other recreational activities are such as watching the telly, forum participation (apart from this subsection of the forum a lot of it is dedicated to non-organising things such as music, random stuff etc), or whatever. And as you yourself acknowledge even non-revolutionary directed activities have their role to play in the recharging ones batteries so to speak...

But then, it can be argued that other things that have been viewed positivly by yourself carry that neutrality. For instance, community organising, if its done in a nimby sense, then its not going to carry any revolutionary potential. But if its done in a universalist class consious mode then its going to definately carry that potential. Same with football. If one is a passive spectator then yeah no revolutionary import. But, as im sure you'll know that there are lots of fans who get involved in the immediate concerns by their club, and from start to grapple with the problem of football as a whole and before you know it, the problems of 'modern football' can be seen as a problem of capitalism. You in fact made a point about my post about my exclusion from participating in an activity i enjoy by my present economic circumstances, surely you've answered your own question there by how one approaches football can be factored into a leftie framework.

If someone can 'love music and hate racism' surely someone can 'love football and hate capitalism'

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

love squirrels hate porridge

 

[audiotech]

My recent experience of the WEA suggests it has morphed into a vehicle for a career move benefiting an "enlightened" strata of the middle classes.

 

[butchersapron]

Love jazz, forced purchases

 

[october_lost]

Like what?

Pre-figurative politics for a start. There was already a post a few pages ago talking about how our values reproduce capitalist norms, and we have to seek not to perpetuate these in our lives and activity.

Anywhere our lives confront the state or the market that is where we should be organising, and I find the logic that this should be done through a omnipotent party model to be staggering.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

My recent experience of the WEA suggests it has morphed into a vehicle for a career move benefiting an "enlightened" strata of the middle classes.

lol Doesn't match mine, they're mostly well meaning professional working class people who want to help other working class people learn stuff.

 

[chilango]

My recent experience of the WEA suggests it has morphed into a vehicle for a career move benefiting an "enlightened" strata of the middle classes.

Aye. Figures. It's a sound enough idea though.

As I said "things like.."

 

[SpineyNorman]

Err, no, I'm being totally serious. Would it be easier for you to recognise it if I substitute, say, the Olympics for football? Same shit, at least in my opinion.



The difference with spending time on forums such as this one is that there is a least the possibility of exchanging opinion and experience which we can then apply and benefit from in our wider lives. Dedicated following of spectator sport is, in my opinion, as alienating and counter-revolutionary as religion.

Please do get involved with Unite Community, everyone's welcome, but please, if you do, leave this ^^^ kind of shite at home eh? Apart from being a load of old bollocks, it's bound to piss just about everyone off and alienate people we should be working with. Football is fucking ace by the way.

 

[audiotech]

lol Doesn't match mine, they're mostly well meaning professional working class people who want to help other working class people learn stuff.

The tutor I had said he worked 16 hours a week and he went on to state to the class he was teaching that his goal was to reduce this to nil, so he could 'sit on his arse all day'. i except this is probably an exception to the normal run of the mill WEA tutors one meets. He has an ego the size of a house.

 

[andysays]

Don't think its neccesarily a distraction from the main point of the thread since we are talking about modes of organising following the event of the manifest failuire of the biggest organisation in the far left in its organising approach...

OK, I'll take that as encouragement to pursue it...

I'd say its footballs totally neutral in regards to how it fits into a revolutionary schema. Sure, if ones relationship to football as a fan is as a passive spectator then yes its problematic in the way that other recreational activities are such as watching the telly, forum participation (apart from this subsection of the forum a lot of it is dedicated to non-organising things such as music, random stuff etc), or whatever. And as you yourself acknowledge even non-revolutionary directed activities have their role to play in the recharging ones batteries so to speak...

But then, it can be argued that other things that have been viewed positivly by yourself carry that neutrality. For instance, community organising, if its done in a nimby sense, then its not going to carry any revolutionary potential. But if its done in a universalist class consious mode then its going to definately carry that potential. Same with football. If one is a passive spectator then yeah no revolutionary import. But, as im sure you'll know that there are lots of fans who get involved in the immediate concerns by their club, and from start to grapple with the problem of football as a whole and before you know it, the problems of 'modern football' can be seen as a problem of capitalism. You in fact made a point about my post about my exclusion from participating in an activity i enjoy by my present economic circumstances, surely you've answered your own question there by how one approaches football can be factored into a leftie framework.

If someone can 'love music and hate racism' surely someone can 'love football and hate capitalism'

In my experience, and I say this as someone who lost whatever interest I might once have had in football a couple of decades ago, the vast majority of people who are football fans are merely passive fans (you may be an exception, in which case don't take this personally, but it doesn't undermine my general point). Added to that, most of them are not "football fans" but partisan fans of one particular team. I can (kind of) see how that level of emotional attachment might mean that people get a higher level of enjoyment than a more neutral observer, but it also tends to mean that their judgement on all sorts of other issues which they may care about in other spheres of life goes out the fucking window.

An example of this is arguments I've had with friends who are quite happy for "their" team/club to effectively shit on local communities in the process of redeveloping their ground, accepting things which they would have been dead against had we been talking about a normal commercial developer in whom they had no emotional or partisan interest. That, to me, is an example of false consciousness.

That doesn't mean that there aren't some people who take their love of football as a way of doing something positive, like organising community football sessions for kids, for instance, but they are a tiny minority (maybe you do something similar - I repeat, I'm genuinely not trying to have a pop at you).

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

The tutor I had said he worked 16 hours a week and he went on to state to the class he was teaching that his goal was to reduce this to nil, so he could 'sit on his arse all day'. i except this is probably an exception to the normal run of the mill WEA tutors.

sounds like a lot of working class people...

I'm sure there are some lazy/purely self interested ones but to be honest it's not a lucrative or influential career choice and no different to being a lecturer at a TU ed centre at the local FE college

 

[butchersapron]

The left here, the w/c there.

 

[audiotech]

sounds like a lot of working class people...

'gizzus a job'

 

[andysays]

Please do get involved with Unite Community, everyone's welcome, but please, if you do, leave this ^^^ kind of shite at home eh? Apart from being a load of old bollocks, it's bound to piss just about everyone off and alienate people we should be working with. Football is fucking ace by the way.

OK, please tell me more about you involvement in the UNITE Community thing. I see you're in Sheffield, I'm in London.

In return, I promise I'll shut up about how I don't like football

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

'gizzus a job'

Are you saying that you've never met anyone other than a WEA tutor who has said they would love to sit on their arse all day and be able to afford a half decent life?

 

[audiotech]

Are you saying that you've never met anyone other than a WEA tutor who has said they would love to sit on their arse all day and be able to afford a half decent life?

Not to a class of young, unemployed homeless people at the local crypt, no.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Not to a class of young homeless people at the local crypt, no.

Ok that is fucking stupid

 

[xslavearcx]

Fair enough andysays - like i said football like anything else is neutral and it would be foolhardy to suggest that there is some kinda logical relationship to being a football supporter and being a class warrior, but the same goes for anything really...

 

[audiotech]

Apparently, someone got upset with him at a previous class and an altercation erupted. Liked the sound of his own voice he said. I only attended the one class, couldn't afford the £5 parking fee as well.