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Life after the SWP?

OK, Let's consider this idea of "controlling working class areas" with a real world example. Take, for instance the Stoke area (because the problems of this area and the attempts of its Labour-led council to "manage" the incredible level of ever accelerationg Central Government ordered and controlled funding cuts was the subject of a good BBC4 documentary recently). Firstly Big Capitalism , as with so many previous industrial heartland areas, has pretty much abandoned the Stoke area. The Potteries have mostly been shipped to China. The working class in Stoke are living in an impoverished post industrial wasteland. Local funding for swimming pools, libraries, health centres, nurseries, the NHS, is no longer available. Even a honestly socialist, pro working class, party can no more magic up additional funding to create new jobs on Stoke, or reverse the centrally sourced funding cuts , than the New Labour rabble currently "managing" the death of Stoke by a thousand cuts . Nothing wrong with local self-organisation, in fact it's crucial, but the context of organisation in communities cannot be the illusion of "replacing state services via local collaboration/co-operation" - the communities are too poor to replace the resources stolen via the "austerity agenda" or capitalism generally. To combat that, and deindustrialisation, the looming collapse of the NHS, the robbery of national wealth by the capitalist class, requires a revolutionery, internationalist socialist agenda. Only by placing the local struggles against the cuts in a wider political framework can the local community be deterred from falling either into passive hopelessness at their sheer local powerlessness in isolation - or falling into scapegoatism against easily accessible minority community victims. Always easier , without socialist politics, to blame the local ethnic minority for a shortage of housing or a lack of jobs, or blaming a few grants given to local ethnic minority projects , for their own poverty.

The IWCA have (I say "have", but in fact the IWCA as an organisation with significant membership or local councillors is all but completely dead today - a completely failed initiative - which tested that varient of a localist campaigning and electoral strategy to destruction ) specifically abandoned socialist politics , and indeed regularly denounced socialist politics and the Left generally as having "no relevance to the needs of working class people", for a strange mix of localist campaigning and co-operativist, self-help, ideas - aimed at a very narrow subset of the overall UK working class - mainly the poorest, mainly white, unorganised, poorly educated, working class living on a few big housing estates. This group is actually, for well known solid political reasons usually characterised as the marginalised "Lumpen Proletariat" rather than as a potential key actor in the class struggle. It is traditionally the recruiting ground for fascism, and will always be a hard recruiting ground for the revolutionery Left. Organised workers, and better off, less demoralised, workers (many of them wrongly labelled as "middle class"), most not nowadays living on huge housing estates, are still the core target grouping for work by revolutionery socialists wishing to build an effective mass party.

Prioritising political work amongst the Lumpen Proletariat, particularly encouraging them to seek to" replace" failing state provision by their own volunteer efforts, , indeed dealing with any subset of the working class purely as residents, as citizens, as service users, is actually a distraction from the central task of building co-ordinated working class resistance to the cuts in localities, which requires local mass organisation/mobilisation making demands on the state and capitalism - guided by socialist analysis and explanation . Remember that even the Mondragon Co-operative Movement in the Basque Country have been hard hit by the world wide capitalist crisis, and have , unbelievably, actually outsourced some production to China at the cost of lost local jobs ! Localist, self-help politics are a reactionery dead end. Separating the struggle in the local private and public sector workplaces from these local anti-cuts struggles is also a dead end. The working class really only has any "power" , short of actual physical insurrectionery struggle on the streets, at work, creating surplus value - or via strikes - REFUSING to create surplus value and run services. As a resident, a consumer of services, a citizen, the working class person is pretty powerless. No trendy denial of the centrality of the working class struggle TO THE WORKPLACE , can change this basic fact. The poor and workless can generally only riot, in isolation,whilst the working class AT WORK can potentially close down the entire society. Just because , in the UK, it is proving difficult to build a mass radical socialist movement today, at a very early stage of the capitalist cuts process in the UK (compared to, say, Greece, Spain, Portugal) , doesn't mean that this task isn't the only one that leads to any joined up, politically viable, alternative to the world capitalist crisis.

Don't be tempted to abandon your socialist politics now guys, for some localist, self-help, mirage. The impact of the 2008 world capitalist crisis will take some time to mature into new political structures. It's happening in Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal - and it'll happen here too. A bit of patience needed, not despair.

How and where do you really think most "surplus value" is produced here and now?
 
How do you get control of the means of production? And how do you ensure that its the class taking control and not a small group of people with no support?
the Bolsheviks achieved the former, and a MASS Bolshevik party could achieve the latter.

In my opinion, the situation has moved on from 1917. Russia had a population of 80 million, with approximate working class of 2 million, and a massive peasantry class. Not long after 1917 the working class that achieved the revolution, were virtually wiped out. T

Right round the world today, wherever you look, the working class is in the majority.

Right round the world today, the working class is far more politically educated than could be the working class and peasantry of 1917.

given that situation, and that any Bolshevik party today would have learned the catastrophe of Stalinism/ state capitalism/ control of the means of production by "small group of people with no support?", I don't think after a revolution in the UK today control of the means of production by "small group of people with no support?" would be desired by anybody, or even possible.

in my opinion, anarchists had opportunity to take control of the means of production in Spain and refused, because of their politics and theoretical analysis. Bolsheviks took control of the means of production and failed, for a whole load of reasons, to create communism. judge for yourself which politics is better placed create communism/anarchism today . :)
 
To put it more succinctly, October, Louis, and others claimed my delineation of the SWP political intervention during elections was "bogus", the article confirms it wasn't. It was a completely accurate portrayal of THEIR position, in THEIR publications.
 
such as those places where the working class has organised itself, or could organise itself.

In which communities has the working class organised itself?

It's not "communities vs workplaces" it's recognising that we "reproduce capital" in all aspects of our everyday life.

"Seizing the means of production" can't just happen in a workplace. It has to happen everywhere.

Capital has long developed beyond archaic "workplaces" and extracts surplus value anywhere, and anyway, it can.

Do you really think a general strike of organised workers in organised workplaces would bring capital to a grinding halt?

Of course not.

That's only part of the terrain we have to fight on.
 
ayatollah The IWCA have (I say "have", but in fact the IWCA as an organisation with significant membership or local councillors is all but completely dead today - a completely failed initiative.

If, as you say, the IWCA failed, at least they only failed once.

Unlike your vision of the Left, which has failed over and over and over and over again.
 
ayatollah - i dont see the problem with the IWCA targetting the subset of lumpen proletariat given that you yourself say that such a grouping is vulnerable to gravitating towards fascism. If thats your analysis, it seems that you are in agreeance with the whole rationale behind the formation of the IWCA to fill such vacummes as vulnerable towards being targetted by fascism.

Also, you say that all that is left for lumpens to do is to have the odd riot whilst the real work of stopping capital is the domain of the workplace where surplus value is explotied. Fair enough but the whole of capital volume 2 is about how important circulation is towards to maintainance of capital. If thats the case then i can see plenty of scope outside of the sphere of value production to have an impact on capitalism - hell even riots can have their role i guess...
 
the Bolsheviks achieved the former, and a MASS Bolshevik party could achieve the latter.

In my opinion, the situation has moved on from 1917. Russia had a population of 80 million, with approximate working class of 2 million, and a massive peasantry class. Not long after 1917 the working class that achieved the revolution, were virtually wiped out. T

Right round the world today, wherever you look, the working class is in the majority.

Right round the world today, the working class is far more politically educated than could be the working class and peasantry of 1917.

given that situation, and that any Bolshevik party today would have learned the catastrophe of Stalinism/ state capitalism/ control of the means of production by "small group of people with no support?", I don't think after a revolution in the UK today control of the means of production by "small group of people with no support?" would be desired by anybody, or even possible.

in my opinion, anarchists had opportunity to take control of the means of production in Spain and refused, because of their politics and theoretical analysis. Bolsheviks took control of the means of production and failed, for a whole load of reasons, to create communism. judge for yourself which politics is better placed create communism/anarchism today . :)

Do you want to respond to my criticisms of the Bolsheviks? Ta.
 
It's not "communities vs workplaces" it's recognising that we "reproduce capital" in all aspects of our everyday life.
I couldn't agree with you more, it is not communities versus workplaces.
Wherever the working class has organised in communities to defend its interests, IE rent strikes et cetera, socialist have a history of being an organic part of those struggles. I see no reason for that to change.
"Seizing the means of production" can't just happen in a workplace. It has to happen everywhere.
couldn't agree with you more. I said earlier, we want, have to have, the whole cake.

Capital has long developed beyond archaic "workplaces" and extracts surplus value anywhere, and anyway, it can.
you would need to further develop the argument, for me to be clear precisely what you mean by this.

Do you really think a general strike of organised workers in organised workplaces would bring capital to a grinding halt?

Of course not.

That's only part of the terrain we have to fight on.
How and where do you really think most "surplus value" is produced here and now?

We agree that the emancipation of the working class has to be the act of the working class. Why? Because what is taking place is class war. In a class war, like any other war, what matters is what forces can be organised to fight.

I personally would want to concentrate my efforts wherever, wherever the working class is best organised, too best fight for working class interests. Historical precedent for this, is in the main the organised working place. However, this historical precedent does not rule out anything. As I said earlier, wherever the working class is organised, socialist have a record of being an organic part of those struggles.

Lastly, I would argue, that in the UK if the working class took control of all means of production, control of working class areas would without doubt fall to the working class. However, if they took control of their own local communities, control of all means of production would not so naturally fall to the working class. That is why my emphasis would be upon the former, and not the latter.
 
ayatollah - i dont see the problem with the IWCA targetting the subset of lumpen proletariat given that you yourself say that such a grouping is vulnerable to gravitating towards fascism. If thats your analysis, it seems that you are in agreeance with the whole rationale behind the formation of the IWCA to fill such vacummes as vulnerable towards being targetted by fascism.
in my opinion, the problem is this.

In the 1930s Goebbels complained to his diary that the cadre [from the lumpenproletariat] were going across on mass from the fascists, to the Communists. Why were the lumpenproletariat doing this? For the same reason the ruling class turned to the fascists. The Communist look like they could pose a real threat to capitalism.
The lumpenproletariat, as you describe them, gravitated towards fascism when it thought that was an answer to its dilemmas. It gravitated towards communism, when that looked like it could give answer to its dilemmas. The key to winning the lumpenproletariat away from fascism, isn't pandering to fascism, racism, the dominant ideas in society, it is about creating an opposite pole of attraction. An organised working class, which can take on an organised ruling class, and win.
Also, you say that all that is left for lumpens to do is to have the odd riot whilst the real work of stopping capital is the domain of the workplace where surplus value is explotied. Fair enough but the whole of capital volume 2 is about how important circulation is towards to maintainance of capital. If thats the case then i can see plenty of scope outside of the sphere of value production to have an impact on capitalism - hell even riots can have their role i guess...
In my opinion you are making the same mistake Chilango made above.
In a class war surplus value does not get up and fight. What matters is the balance of class forces. How the working class is organised, and how the ruling class is organised.
The emancipation of the working class, is the act of the working class, not surplus value.
 
in my opinion, the problem is this.

In the 1930s Goebbels complained to his diary that the cadre [from the lumpenproletariat] were going across on mass from the fascists, to the Communists.
which part of the 1930s was this? the later 1930s? and it's not like he REALLY complained to his diary, he just wrote a complaint in it, which is a different thing.
 
Do you want to respond to my criticisms of the Bolsheviks? Ta.
no, because that wasn't the topic I was discussing with October, Louis et cetera. They claimed I misrepresented the position of the SWP, which I have proved they were wrong.
However, I refer you to my earlier response. If they are distorting it, they are coming to a conclusion, that you agree with, which is curious. :)
Your original contribution was;
What the SWP teach their members about the Bolsheviks is, at best, distorted and biased. At its worst, outright lies.

Outright lies?
That's a very selective list you've compiled there. Is that really all you think the SWP took from the Bolsheviks? Is that really all Leninism is?

My criticism was based more on what the SWP leave out of their history of Bolshevism and the Russian Revolution. Taking your three points that the SWP learnt from the Bolsheviks, a critic could easily show where the Bolsheviks did the exact opposite.

Did the Bolsheviks "listen to the working class" when they elected Mensheviks in a number of urban soviets in 1918? Did they "learn" from the working class when a mass meeting of Putilov workers demanded multi party elections in 1918? Did the Bolsheviks change when the Kronstadt sailors asked from freely elected soviets, or only after they slaughtered them?

I think you're referring to the Bolsheviks prior to October 1917 though, aren't you?

What you seem unable to comprehend, is the possibility, the possibility that they genuinely believe their counter arguments to all those points you make. The possibility, the remote possibility you may be, and they may be fallible.
Personally, I don't know who is right. I fully acknowledge the possibility the SWP may be wrong on the Bolsheviks. I fully acknowledge the possibility you may be wrong on the Bolsheviks. What concerns me, is that there conclusions from the lessons of history, set out a reasonable and understandable strategy for dealing with the present which make sense to myself and most people I present them to, whereas the non-Bolshevik left are not prepared to present on here an alternative strategy for our appraisal.
Until you can pUt a coherent alternative, my position remains the same as above.
in my opinion, anarchists had opportunity to take control of the means of production in Spain and refused, because of their politics and theoretical analysis. Bolsheviks took control of the means of production and failed, for a whole load of reasons, to create communism. judge for yourself which politics is better placed create communism/anarchism today . :)
PS. Due to comments by frog woman earlier, I will clarify. When I say which politics is better placed to create communism/anarchism today, I mean which set of ideas, which analysis. I'm not for one moment suggesting socialists or anarchists can create communism/anarchism on behalf of the working class. We all agree that the emancipation of the working class, can only be the act of the working class.
 
in my opinion, the problem is this.


The lumpenproletariat, as you describe them, gravitated towards fascism when it thought that was an answer to its dilemmas. It gravitated towards communism, when that looked like it could give answer to its dilemmas. The key to winning the lumpenproletariat away from fascism, isn't pandering to fascism, racism, the dominant ideas in society, it is about creating an opposite pole of attraction. An organised working class, which can take on an organised ruling class, and win.In my opinion you are making the same mistake Chilango made above.

To be honest im not really fond of the term 'lumpen' i used it because that was the terminology that ayatolloh employed in the post i was responding to...

As for creating an opposite pole of attraction - id've thought that this was exactly what the IWCA where attempting to do - to put class back onto the agenda and with regards to community resources specifically, moving away from the particularities of identity politics towards the material universal concerns of all those who reside in working class areas..

For me personally, even if we accept the notion of "lumpen" as subset of the working class as a whole then that means there is no conflict between such a strata and the rest of the set that they belong to. Also, i guess the notion of the most pivotal domain of action being the workplace will be particularly attractive for those who work - especially if they reside in workplaces that continue to have some kind of organisation. But where does that leave the rest of us who for whatever reason are not in that situation? Not very empowering situation whereby a person who is equally fucked over by capitalism that the only legitimate role according to the left is to sit and wait for unionised workplaces to start moving away from their particular interests of negotiating within capitalism towards some kinda revolutionary framework. I mean its not really going to be inspiring for someone say on the dole, who is castigated for being feckless,to be told by the left, by the way mate there really is nothing for you to do here. Fuck that! Doesnt really sound like much of a pole of attraction from the left there!

And then theres the whole thing in Capital Volume 1 about the neccesity of an industrial reserve army to depress wages and to deal with any increase demand for labour should the capitalist class needs it.... It seems to me by performing the role of industrial reserve army, along with the fact that they are in the worst material circumstances at the moment, that it would seem that their interests with the working part of the working class are one and the same.

In a class war surplus value does not get up and fight. What matters is the balance of class forces. How the working class is organised, and how the ruling class is organised.
The emancipation of the working class, is the act of the working class, not surplus value.

Wouldnt disagree with that at all - thats why all factors of what makes capitalism tick such as value production, social reproduction and circulation etc need to be taken into account. why exclude ourselves from all options on the table??

Surely the notion of working class control transcends the workplace into all arenas on society, and therefore the IWCA by putting services under the question of working class control can only be a good thing in reinforcing the general noion of workers control??
 
in my opinion, the problem is this.

In the 1930s Goebbels complained to his diary that the cadre [from the lumpenproletariat] were going across on mass from the fascists, to the Communists. Why were the lumpenproletariat doing this? For the same reason the ruling class turned to the fascists. The Communist look like they could pose a real threat to capitalism..
Was this really the case? Were there really masses of 'lumpenproletarians' going from the nazis to the communists? When did this occur? Why did it make no difference to the victoryofthe nazis?
Or was it a case of the paranoia of the nazi hierarchy, the nazis were driven by a terror of a repeat of the November revolution, in their fevered imaginations communist- Jewish plots were always simmering. The nazis operated in a self generated atmosphere of permanent crisis, this comment by Geobbels fits well into this.it is not however an argument for a Leninist party.
 
I broke my neck in a car crash in 1984 which left me paralysed from the neck down, and subsequently unemployed. Paul, a comrade in the same branch, became unemployed from the closure of the Salford pit, and remains so to this day. Neither of us had problems understanding the arguments of the SWP on centrality of the organised working class, and being active in focusing our efforts upon the organised working class. I see no reason why other similarly placed people would find it impossible to understand the arguments/strategy/analysis and becoming involved.
------------------------------------

I want to be absolutely clear. I am not, I am categorically not against working class control, of working class areas. If the working class were to organise itself, and achieve that aim, fantastic! Where the working class has organised itself in the community, IE rent strikes ,socialist have always supported such Actions .however historically, in the community, the working class by precedent has always been more atomised, than it has in the workplace. If that historical precedent were to change, then I would agree with the SWP;
october_lost chilango etc http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=13412

Of Lenin . "But he did not come to any situation with all the answers. He listened to workers own experiences. His strength as a leader was his ability to learn from the class and to be prepared to change tack."
-------------------------------
Do the IWCA equate to a revolutionary alternative pole of attraction to fascism? I'm not fully conversant with the arguments. I would say that there "local jobs, local housing, etc for local people" arguments, dovetail with those of the ruling class extreme right and fascists rather than challenge them head-on. However, I don't know enough to take on their arguments.
What I would say is, what I said earlier. Control of working class areas would without doubt come from control of the means of production. There is never been a society where those who have controlled the means of production, having control society. However, there have been societies where local people have controlled their local areas, but control of society has remained with the ruling class, those who have controlled the means of production. I.e. feudalism.
Also, capitalism is quite happy to privatise production. Look at the family. Capitalism is quite happy for the working class family to have control, and incur the total costs of workers reproduction.
Communism isn't just about taking control, it's also about communalising the burdens. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. To achieve this, we need control of the whole cake.
Thanks for your interesting contribution, got to go now. :)
 
Was this really the case? Were there really masses of 'lumpenproletarians' going from the nazis to the communists? When did this occur? Why did it make no difference to the victoryofthe nazis?
Or was it a case of the paranoia of the nazi hierarchy, the nazis were driven by a terror of a repeat of the November revolution, in their fevered imaginations communist- Jewish plots were always simmering. The nazis operated in a self generated atmosphere of permanent crisis, this comment by Geobbels fits well into this.it is not however an argument for a Leninist party.
so the SWP isn't a real Leninist party?
 
How and where do you really think most "surplus value" is produced here and now?

And to follow on from ayatollah's example of Stoke,if we accept that

Big Capitalism , as with so many previous industrial heartland areas, has pretty much abandoned the Stoke area and the Potteries have mostly been shipped to China

this means that there's currently far less surplus value being produced there than there once was, which suggests to me that the possibilities for organised workers to exercise power by refusing to create surplus value and run services are severely limited.

I agree that simply focussing on local struggles is not enough, but it's hard to see how those local struggles can be linked into anything wider, given the massive shrinking in the productive economy in Stoke and many places like it.
 
Resistance - think our positions are pretty much the same barring slight different emphasises. wherever full communism comes from ill be happy :)
 
Control of working class areas would without doubt come from control of the means of production.
It's not liike the IWCA, and other community campaigns have thought "shall we control the means of production? Nahhhhhhh, let's not bother." It's more that in the here and now the struggles to take over the control of the means of production are so far away from realisable as to be pointless. Whereas very many working class communities have been simply abandoned by the left, including Labour, and are a very important and feasible place to organise. The left is ignoring an open goal simply because it involves lots and lots of everyday leg-work, in favour of running after the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
 
Also legwork in communities means hearing stuff you don't want to hear.

...and not hearing the stuff you do.

Easier to stick to people who agree with you and want to talk about broad lefts, international politics, identity politics etc.
 
Wasn't left wing/working class politics once about winning gains that made your own life better? Wasn't that why so many people formed these mass movements? Is that anything that a current left group can offer?
 
To put it more succinctly, October, Louis, and others claimed my delineation of the SWP political intervention during elections was "bogus", the article confirms it wasn't. It was a completely accurate portrayal of THEIR position, in THEIR publications.

I claimed the SWP was demanding, confused, contradictory and wrongheaded; your posts are not undermining these claims.

Louis MacNeice
 
Wasn't left wing/working class politics once about winning gains that made your own life better? Wasn't that why so many people formed these mass movements? Is that anything that a current left group can offer?

The recent history of red action touches on what you talk about above

It’s hardly a secret either that RA was pivotal in clearing the way theoretically (e.g. puncturing the notion that strikes are necessarily either an engine or barometer for social change, or by chipping away at identity politics' liberal varnish) prior to the launch of the IWCA in 1995. That the latter would mark its public debut with a campaign to stymie a mugging epidemic plaguing a vast estate in Birmingham would break the mould of what a Left, even at its most expansive, might have ever considered within its remit. And yet from an old-school communist vista, empowering an entire community and thus denying both the state and the far-right a foothold would have been regarded as either elementary or inspired.

The alternative to ignoring community organisation is that parties like the BNP seize on peoples discontent, and stir up hate. In Phil Piratin's book ‘Our Flag Stays Red’ he describes the Communist Party’s (CP) strategy for defeating fascism in the East End in the 1930’s.​
In one chapter, a local family is being evicted by slum landlords and the CP branch discusses what to do - the problem being that the head of the family is a member of the Mosley’s British Union of Fascists. Piratin’s position is that irrespective of the family’s BUF connections, the eviction must be resisted because working class people must be protected against the capitalists. Amidst much internal hostility, Piratin’s position prevailed. The CP successfully prevents the eviction of family, and the BUF member defected to the CP, saying that he had mistakenly believed that the fascists stood for ordinary people like him​
And it was precisely because of the ‘grasping the nettle’ nature of campaigns like this that when it came to elections, though very much a bantamweight in a heavyweight division the IWCA pilot schemes delivered arguably the best spread of results from a standing start of any left wing group post-war, when taking into account the dearth of resources on the ground. Elected councillors apart, probably the stand-out and least heralded performances were the near 5,000 votes accrued in just two wards in Havering (half of Arthur Scargill’s SLP total nationally); and in a typically hard fought election in Glasgow against no less than five national parties, the IWCA nevertheless took a fifth of the total vote, coming in a close 3rd
 
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