Libertarian and Liberal
- Thread starter Gmart
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Both terms are used in that blog in the US fashion and so different from normal usage. The liberal offered there is an charicature to fit in with the evil vs good model the author is attempting to construct. With the libertarians dressed in white of course.
It's a load of shit basically.
Still struggling with Rand eh gm?
It's a load of shit basically.
Still struggling with Rand eh gm?
Libertarians are economically conservative and socially liberal. They marry the conservative belief in small government to a belief in freedom of the individual, so dropping traditional conservative moral authoritarianism.
Whereas liberals are just wet, sort-of-lefty wimpoes who buy green and who wish everyone could be more nice to each other.
Whereas liberals are just wet, sort-of-lefty wimpoes who buy green and who wish everyone could be more nice to each other.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
Both terms are used in that blog in the US fashion and so different from normal usage. The liberal offered there is an caricature to fit in with the evil vs good model the author is attempting to construct. With the libertarians dressed in white of course.
It's a load of shit basically.
Still struggling with Rand eh gm?
Nope, you still failing to say anything useful?
Gmart
Well-Known Member
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I've just said something useful. That the way that the terms are used in that particular blog are partial, polemical, inaccurate and based on the US usage - and primarily that of the proponents of a minimal-state capitalism who very delieberately set out 50 years ago, to turn the term 'libertarian' from the traditional usage i.e anarchism into one that supported their own politics. This is also reflected in their charicature of 'liberals' (again, within the US usage). Also it's a Randite blog and i know that you're interested in that particular cult.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
I failed to notice this, i just did a search for the two terms and the word 'difference' and out it popped.
*goes back to check*
Whoops Butcher talking sh*t again, and I fell for it doh!
Er, he tells everyone to read chapters 1-3 of some Rand book. So it is a Randite blog.
Why do people find Ayn Rand appealing? It's simple minded reverse-communism. I mean, she takes a charicatured version of what she thinks Evil Communists think, and then decides to believe exactly the opposite of that. Pathetic.
Why do people find Ayn Rand appealing? It's simple minded reverse-communism. I mean, she takes a charicatured version of what she thinks Evil Communists think, and then decides to believe exactly the opposite of that. Pathetic.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Fliipping 'eck. It's a Ranidist blog, You've started a thread on Rand and posted about her hundereds of times. You have an interest in Rand. Me noticing these two facts and wondering if they are connected is not 'talking shit'.
If you want to undrmine your own thread with this sort of behaviour then fine. Have it your way.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
Fair enough that he recommends as he does at the end, but I am not really interested in that, (and neither is anyone else here seeing as any conversation about Rand just leads to abuse.)
So does anyone find the difference between Liberal and Libertarian useful in some way?
So does anyone find the difference between Liberal and Libertarian useful in some way?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
A quick glance at that blog shows it is a very American blog. Furthermore, it is a "Libertarian leaning blog" which recommends Atlas Shrugged. Its "humorous" list would give away its Objectivism even if the book recommendation wasn't there.
Liberal means a whole range of things. Economical liberalism means the classical free market economics of Adam Smith et al. These values were espoused by the New Right, as updated by Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman. So by that measure, a liberal is a Conservative.
It really isn't a very useful word these days because of the range of different ways it is applied.
Libertarian, however, is a term anarchists have been using in self description since at least the 1850s. In Europe it has always been associated with anarchism. The American Libertarian Party, however, has only been around since the 1970s.
Errrmmm....
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Eh? Libertarians (in the US sense, which is what is being discussed here) are economically Liberal, in that they believe in free trade.
In so far as libertarians really struggle with humour you mean?
e.g. http://celebratecapitalism.org/artpage/index.html
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
I guess it depends on what you mean by conservative. The meaning has changed a bit over the years...
rogue_lettuce
Member
Libertarianism is for nice people who don't understand economics, whereas liberalism is for nice people who don't understand economics OR the role of the state.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
More rubbish! I get the feeling that the people here are just as confused as I am about the difference.
No one seems able to give a decent definitive difference, and I can't find one, so maybe the two words actually mean the same.
The Authoritarian attitude I associate with the Conservative part of the scheme of things. They don't feel the system will sort itself out if left to it's own devices, so they meddle and impose order, which is rebelled against etc.
An authoritarian always has a problem with trusting others coz he doesn't trust anyone (esp not themselves).
Meanwhile the liberal/libertarian trusts the people to make their own minds up, with a general trend towards self-government and the empowerment of the people.
Any advance?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
You don't believe me, then?
JHE
.
Anyone who expects the word 'libertarian' to have just one clear meaning is going to be disappointed. Off hand, I can think of three uses:
1. A synonym for anarchist.
2. Of a 'minimal state' variety of pro-capitalist ideology, full-on consistent economic liberals
3. Indicating a commitment to some strong version of personal liberty (probably seen as extreme by others) - for example those who want to legalise all drugs are libertarian, at least in that regard, but are not necessarily libertarians in sense 1 or 2, or even libertarians in relation to other specific questions of liberty. (I happen to know someone who favours the legalisation of all drugs, but is opposed to some of the liberties of expression that I regard as crucial to a decent liberal polity.)
There is obviously overlap, but only overlap, between people who count as libertarian in sense 2 and people who count in sense 3. The old Federation of Conservative Students had a libertarian wing that counted as libertarian in senses 2 and 3. I believe there are more people like that in the US.
The word libertarian can be a problem because it has at least those three different meanings - but frankly I think this is only a problem for naive people who expect political terms to be unequivocal and uncontested.
The word 'liberal', on the other hand, (a) is used in such radically different and contradictory ways in different places and even in the same places and yet (b) is very difficult to do without. The only sane response is to be frustrated at least sometimes by some people's use(s) of the word. (The uses that frustrate me are the ones that indicate clear lack of liberty - for example, 'It's the liberals who want to ban such and such'. No, it's not!)
1. A synonym for anarchist.
2. Of a 'minimal state' variety of pro-capitalist ideology, full-on consistent economic liberals
3. Indicating a commitment to some strong version of personal liberty (probably seen as extreme by others) - for example those who want to legalise all drugs are libertarian, at least in that regard, but are not necessarily libertarians in sense 1 or 2, or even libertarians in relation to other specific questions of liberty. (I happen to know someone who favours the legalisation of all drugs, but is opposed to some of the liberties of expression that I regard as crucial to a decent liberal polity.)
There is obviously overlap, but only overlap, between people who count as libertarian in sense 2 and people who count in sense 3. The old Federation of Conservative Students had a libertarian wing that counted as libertarian in senses 2 and 3. I believe there are more people like that in the US.
The word libertarian can be a problem because it has at least those three different meanings - but frankly I think this is only a problem for naive people who expect political terms to be unequivocal and uncontested.
The word 'liberal', on the other hand, (a) is used in such radically different and contradictory ways in different places and even in the same places and yet (b) is very difficult to do without. The only sane response is to be frustrated at least sometimes by some people's use(s) of the word. (The uses that frustrate me are the ones that indicate clear lack of liberty - for example, 'It's the liberals who want to ban such and such'. No, it's not!)
Gmart
Well-Known Member
I quoted your only post to show how little you said. The only bit which was at all informative is:
Which doesn't really say anything concrete except that it is like free market innit...
You didn't even go so far with your comment on Libertarian which simply told me who liked to use it.
So yes zero points for everyone here, and I suspect I'll have to wait for Phil Dwyer to actually answer the question.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Libertarianism is a synonym for anarchism. Which is why anarchists have used it as a synonym for anarchism since the mid 19th century. (Rather than, I dunno, cell animation artists using it as a synonym for their art).
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Which is what economic liberalism is about.
There are too many uses of the term liberal for it to be a useful term though.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
You know and care, though, don't you? A lot.
rogue_lettuce
Member
To be more precise, the word "libertarian" when used on its own, without other qualifiers normally means anarcho-capitalist, in modern usage. As opposed to, say, "libertarian socialism".
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Or to be more precise, it means that in modern American usage; in European usage it still means what it always did.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No that's not an advance. That's hoplessly confused. The approach that you describe above as conservative is more commonly associated today with liberals, and conservatives are more associated with smaller govt etc (ideologically speaking anyway).
Your whole premise for this thread is nonsense, this has become clear as you reject every post which points out things different to what seems to be your own belief (and what you seem to want to hear) - that liberatarians and liberals are the same. It's also not a good way to proceed to assume that if no differences are apparent to you (deespite people poniting out some very important differences) then these two concepts must be the same.
Why don't you start again and tell us what you're after, tell us what you understand by the terms liberatarian, liberal (and conservative for that matter), whether you're speaking historically, in terms of parties, of social attitudes. everyday uasge etc as there's massive differences and crossover between all these uses.
i.e
Liberalism - based on individualist theories of man and society, bassed around possesive individualism
Liberal - socially permissive attittudes
Liberalism - generic left wing, collectivist
liberal - lacking rigour, holding weak and sentimental beliefs
(all from Raymond Williams Keywords)
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