Legalising Brothels

[CyberRose]

gotta go in a sec, so just on this part of the rest of your post - no, allowing SOO's or whatever wouldn't stop the existence of pimps and exploitation - I doubt anything would bar a wholesale change in the whole nature of society. But it could well make things a darned site better for many of those women who do feel compelled to work in the sex industry.

Well to be honest, it doesn't sound like New Zealand's actual laws are that much different than Holland's, but the two appear to have a very different experience of those laws.

Is it legal in New Zealand to be the brothel owner (ie is oner person able to take a cut of the women's income, like a normal employer)? Is that legal in Holland?

If pimping is the norm and women rarely have contracts or unions, despite pimping being illegal and women having the right to the same rights as a normal employer, why would you think the UK would have a different experience?

 

[belboid]

I'll check those thgings out for ya CR.

Just on the comparisons of IV drug use tho, the figures you quoted earlier weren't even like for like. They should have been 95% of UK streetworkers & 45% of NZ streetworkers - not the 17% you quoted (which is for all sex workers in any field). Combined that with the fact that the UK figure is oft said to be too high, the NZ one to low (tho not drastically so in either case), and the fact that the NZ figure has been taken after several years of the new legislation, and the difference between the two seems pretty minimal really.

 

[CyberRose]

I'll check those thgings out for ya CR.

Just on the comparisons of IV drug use tho, the figures you quoted earlier weren't even like for like. They should have been 95% of UK streetworkers & 45% of NZ streetworkers - not the 17% you quoted (which is for all sex workers in any field). Combined that with the fact that the UK figure is oft said to be too high, the NZ one to low (tho not drastically so in either case), and the fact that the NZ figure has been taken after several years of the new legislation, and the difference between the two seems pretty minimal really.

Well the higher the figure in New Zealand the more it adds to my argument, rather than subtracts

 

[belboid]

uhh, no it doesn't. It makes the rates more similar, hence detracting from your argument that the difference between the two made them incomparable

 

[CyberRose]

uhh, no it doesn't. It makes the rates more similar, hence detracting from your argument that the difference between the two made them incomparable

Ah but the point was never about similarities, but about choice. If we (and I admit very very generally and lazily) say that drug addicts don't have a choice but to enter into prostitution, then the 17% figure in New Zealand suggested that prostitutes there have more of a choice about it, but the UK figure of 95% suggested that practically all prostitutes didn't have that choice.

That is why I said the figures were too far apart for New Zealand and British prostitution to be compared fairly

However, if New Zealand's drug addiction (which actually includes alcohol as well) is high as well, it also suggests that about half New Zealand's prostitutes do not have as much as a choice than proponents of the model would like to think. Legalisation could therefore trap them in an industry they did not want to be in...

 

[belboid]

that is totally arse about face. And is in complete contradiction to other results from the study which showed that women in NZ were more able to both leave the sex trade and get help getting off drugs.

You're pretty consistently getting your stats & their causation and correlation the wrong way round.

 

[CyberRose]

I was just telling you why the subject came up in the first place...

 

[belboid]

fair enuf, I'm just telling you why you got the figures wrong

 

[Gmart]

I'll check those thgings out for ya CR.

Just on the comparisons of IV drug use tho, the figures you quoted earlier weren't even like for like. They should have been 95% of UK streetworkers & 45% of NZ streetworkers - not the 17% you quoted (which is for all sex workers in any field). Combined that with the fact that the UK figure is oft said to be too high, the NZ one to low (tho not drastically so in either case), and the fact that the NZ figure has been taken after several years of the new legislation, and the difference between the two seems pretty minimal really.

Having pointed this out earlier, this is proof positive how little you actually read my posts.

Still what did I expect?? Actual engagement? hardly...

 

[belboid]

you are arguing with the wrong person tho G. It would appear to be CR you should be pointing these things out to (he was the one to ignore your stats previously). As he repeated his fallacious claim about the discrepancy between the stats, repeating the reality seemed rather useful to me.

Still, what else should I expect?

 

[CyberRose]

Anyway, onto more important matters:

Why do you (supporters of legalisation) believe the UK will share the same experiences of New Zealand rather than Holland or Australia (where legalisation has proven to have adverse effects on prostitution)

How is New Zealand legally different from these other two countries?

 

[belboid]

Which state in Aus? There is no national law on prostitution, it varies from state to state.

Can you remind me just how you would like to see prostitution decriminalised over here as well. I know you've said summat earlier, but there are a lot of pages to go back thru to check out just what you said. Ta

 

[CyberRose]

Which state in Aus? There is no national law on prostitution, it varies from state to state.

The ones where it's been legalised!

Can you remind me just how you would like to see prostitution decriminalised over here as well. I know you've said summat earlier, but there are a lot of pages to go back thru to check out just what you said. Ta

I would like exploiters and buyers (altho I may be swayed over the buyers) criminalised. That means anyone that pays for sex, and anyone who makes money out of selling someone else's sex, no matter how good they treated the women. However, I do not want the act of individual prostitution criminalised, like it is in America. I don't think that solves anything or helps prostitutes. I think we need to vastly increase the assistance we give to prostitutes to help them escape the trade or get over their addiction

 

[fela fan]

fuck off mr paedo apologist

more facts from the worker. And what was that picture of you sent me by pm? Could not make no sense of it.

 

[belboid]

Ta CR.

On Aus, unfortunately, the one report you quoted refers to Australia generically, as if it had uniform laws. As it doesn't it seems impossible (certainly from the level of detail you have posted from it) to be able to extrapolate from what data there is, which of the various different laws in Aus have had any particular effect. It isn't clear whether the results are from across Aus or from a specific state. Even if the New South Wales (where the law is almost the same as in NZ) law was brilliantly successful (or unsuccessful) in stopping trafficking, different laws in different states could easily undermine any gains. As such, the info from that report is severely diminished in terms of importance and relevance - we just can't tell if like is being compared with like.

 

[CyberRose]

The London Met Uni research, used by the Scottish Parliament to assess their own prostitution legislation, only conducted research in Victoria, Australia, not the whole of Australia.

 

[XR75]

interseting article. i agree with the points BUT was going to ask you so WHAT then can be done .. but in fact the article refers to what the swedes do and that is very interesting

" ..Rather than sanctioning prostitution, states could address the demand by penalizing the men who buy women for the sex of prostitution.
Sweden has drafted legislation recognizing that without male demand, there would be no female supply. Thinking outside the repressive box of legalization, Sweden has acknowledged that prostitution is a form of male violence against women and children, and the purchase of sexual services is criminalized. The inseparability of prostitution and trafficking is recognized by the Swedish law: “Prostitution and trafficking in women are seen as harmful practices that cannot, and should not be separated; in order to effectively eliminate trafficking in women, concrete measures against prostitution must be put in place” (Ekberg, 2003, p. 69).,, " etc etc

There's some of the femnazi bollocks I was reffering to in an earlier post.

 

[belboid]

go and play with fela fan, eejit boy, you two are well suited

 

[DotCommunist]

There's some of the femnazi bollocks I was reffering to in an earlier post.

thanks for that, it's it a littlejohn word and marks ye out as a wanker

 

[XR75]

hehe, I was explicitly thinking of the 'trampfight' (or whatever they were called) vids which were banned iirr

My point was that even though bumfights was banned, Jackass wasn't.

 

[XR75]

thanks for that, it's it a littlejohn word and marks ye out as a wanker

Do you make the same comment when someones a bit sceptical and gets called a conspiraloon?

go and play with fela fan, eejit boy, you two are well suited

Well what do you think of the bold parts in the quote?

 

[belboid]

My point was that even though bumfights was banned, Jackass wasn't.

so your point was shit, as is your brain

 

[belboid]

Well what do you think of the bold parts in the quote?

that they are mistaken. And they follow from a feminist critique. But that is rather a long way from them thinking that anyone who disagrees with them should be in a fucking concentration camp.

 

[The Black Hand]

thanks for that, it's it a littlejohn word and marks ye out as a wanker

Agreed. Its a wankers stupid and ignorant word from the master of ignorance - Littlejohn.

 

[Citizen66]

When are people gonna realise there will always be prostitution whether we like it or not?

I don't think that is necessarily true. Or it ought not to be. It will exist as long as certain conditions in a society exist such as drug dependency, poverty and also greed on the other end of the scale.

However, criminalisation of the industry doesn't get get rid of it and leaves sex workers open to all manor of abuses that they wouldn't necessarily face if it was legal, above board and regulated.

 

[Citizen66]

There's some of the femnazi bollocks I was reffering to in an earlier post.

Fuck off, prick.

 

[DotCommunist]

The attempt to link certain concepts like fascism or National Socialism with ideas one doesn't like (see: 'liberal fascists' and 'feminazis') is a crude tabloid style slur and deserves only contempt

 

[Citizen66]

The attempt to link certain concepts like fascism or National Socialism with ideas one doesn't like (see: 'liberal fascists' and 'feminazis') is a crude tabloid style slur and deserves only contempt

But it's only Littlejohn and his readership that do that! So I expect our new friend to be somewhat predictable from here-on in.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The thick twat couldn’t even spell the term correctly, in rightwing fucknut circles it’s traditionally spelt “feminazi” not “femnazi”. It was the term used by the BNP’s original candidate for London mayor this year. He described rape as a “myth” perpetrated by "Feminazis”:

"I've never understood why so many men have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the feminazi myth machine into believing that rape is such a serious crime ... Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal.

"To suggest that rape, when conducted without violence, is a serious crime is like suggesting that forcefeeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence. A woman would be more inconvenienced by having her handbag snatched.

"The demonisation of rape is all part of the feminazi desire to obtain power and mastery over men. Men who go along with the rape myth are either morons or traitors."

So that’s the sort of misogynist swamp that XR75 hails from. His equally vile, scumbag counterpart Fela Fan is also an arsehole and prick. Not only does he love banging trafficked Cambodian teenagers but also gets a hard on for strong authoritarian military type men like the bureaucracy of the Chinese prison-industrial complex and the sixteen month military dictatorship (followed by army stage managed “democracy) where he currently resides. His contempt for the weakness and depravity of liberal democratic politics has lead him to embrace fascism – what a dope. Western ex-pats who live in Thailand are usually scum – more in love with their relative wealth amidst a sea of poverty than the country itself (as they claim).

For fucks sake – change the law and lock these scumbags up – you know it makes sense. In the meantime Belboid’s right, they should run off and play together – preferably down a disused mineshaft, blindfolded, playing a game of “catch the depleted uranium’.

 

[DotCommunist]

Men who go along with the rape myth are either morons or traitors."

Hah! traitors to what, one has to ask. Oh thats right, traitors to the sort of rhetoric that would make uncle adolf blush.