CyberRose
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It's not illegal in Britain, it's illegal to pimp prostitutes, but not illegal to be a prostitute
Legalising Brothels
- Thread starter The Black Hand
- Start date
Y'see, you're taking violence, and i guess i've referred to that with the terribly negative connotations that prostitution and brothels have in britain.
I would not argue for legalising such places for one second.
If that's what goes on in them, then count me out. I'm not supporting such stuff for one minute.
But is that the reality?
yeah, but if you had legal 'houses of sex' where would the need for pimps to be involved exist? Surely they would be cut out of the equation?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
no dear fuckwit, you took a wrong turning with your original post.
Of course you dont mean for the above to be the norm, but you are happy to ignore the fact that it is, and then to come up with some rubbish about the Thai sex trade.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
how good of you. Without any form of regulation that probably would be the reality.
Now, unless you have something sane to say, other than your mindlessly vague western hippy in asia shit (I thought most people had realised what bullshit all that was years ago), then you shall be wholly ignored.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
did you? You'll have to remind me, it just came across as 'no, no, there's no comparison' to me.
are you sure you read ANY of the relevant docs? It doesn't sound like it.
Pimping is still the norm in Holland, there are no contracts, SOO's are very much the exception rather than the norm. If you argue (and I'd agree to a large extent) that the pimping is the worst/nastiest aspect of prostitution, then doing something about that seems most sensible.
How do you know it's the norm? Are you heavily experienced in some way? How can you claim factually that this is the norm in britain? You show me how you're right, and i'll not ignore it at all.
After 18 years of seeing the 'thai sex trade', i think i can safely say i'm talking beyond the level of 'rubbish' on this topic.
But you calling me 'fuckwit' for my opinions (or, more accurately, your faulty interpretations of my opinions) tends to lessen the strength of your argument.
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
I can't spend any more time on here today but IMO this discussion is impeded by a lack of understanding of the meaning of the words legalization and decriminalization and what they mean in terms of sex work and the law
I think it would be helpful if some of the posters here familiarized themselves with what legalization and decriminalization actually mean as it would save a lot of time and effort all round
helpful linky below
http://www.bayswan.org/defining.html
I think it would be helpful if some of the posters here familiarized themselves with what legalization and decriminalization actually mean as it would save a lot of time and effort all round
helpful linky below
http://www.bayswan.org/defining.html
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I've called you a fuckwit for your opinions and your expression of them. I am absolutely right to do so.
Every single bit of evidence ever from the UK has pointed out how fucking nasty and brutish life as a prostitute is, fuckwits coming along and pretending it's anything else are ignorant at best, utter wankers, more probably.
I'll now leave you to continue watching the thai sex trade, and imagining what its like for the girls there.
All you're doing is displaying your own ignorance. They're the people who do the ignoring, the ignorant. You ignore people, then it stands to reason you're ignorant. You spout, but you won't listen.
'Mindlessly vague western hippy in asia shit'??? Wow, some language there then belboid.
Go on, hide behind the language, and if you can't do that, then just ignore. That is the actions of the ignorant.
My opinions and experiences of thailand (not asia, thailand) are based on living here for 18 years. If you choose to disparage them as 'Mindlessly vague western hippy in asia shit', then i just hope you enjoy revelling in your own ignorant shit.
You call me a fuckwit, up to you. It's a strange thing to do when you disagree with someone. But it says more about you than me.
If that is the evidence from the UK, then i'll not be supporting legalisation of the profession. But are you right in your claim about this? I don't know, but you seem very certain without anything to back up your claims.
As for the thai sex trade, i'm really rather well informed on this topic thank you, and i think britain would do well to study it and see if it can use any of its findings to inform itself on how to proceed in the subject of satisfying the natural demand and supply of sex.
If all this violence is the case as you say, then that is more a judgment on society than anything. And legalising or not will make no impact on the continuation of that violence.
'We'? How many of you are there?
One
stupid
western
hippy
in
asia
but lots of belboids. Help.
CyberRose
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Well, that's a short summary of what I said!
I noticed from the New Zealand report that the number of prostitutes with an addiction is much much lower than in the UK. This will have a severe effect on the number of prostitutes that choose that line of work, and those who feel they have no choice. There is also, apparently, no link between human trafficking and prostitution in New Zealand, the same most certainly cannot be said for the UK, so that's something the New Zealand model gives us no indicator of
Well pimping is illegal in Netherlands, so the fact that it goes on despite prostitution being legal is telling. However, pimping means the coercion and deceit of women, so perhaps what you refer to above is different and only means profiteering from someone else's sex. What's the score in New Zealand? Is one person allowed to own a brothel? Or must the proceeds be shared out equally among only the sex workers?
Also, you say there are no contracts in Holland, yet prostitutes are supposed to be treated like any other employee in any industry and are able to form unions, so if they don't, then something has gone wrong with legalisation there (and in this respect, there seems no difference between the New Zealand laws and Dutch laws, just different outcomes)
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
another useful linky re sex work in Holland
http://www.rodedraad.nl/index.php?id=221
not that any of you are paying the slightest bit of attention
just carry on slagging each other off if you like
http://www.rodedraad.nl/index.php?id=221
not that any of you are paying the slightest bit of attention
just carry on slagging each other off if you like
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
the figures on drug use are not all that different (I am a little dubious about the 95% stat, tho the fact that the vast majority of women will be users is in no doubt) - the Jordan report for the NZ government pointed out that a 'very large number' of sex workers (particularly street workers) have drug problems, but that there has actually been very little research done. So I think your insistrence on some big difference there is misplaced. As to the link with trafficking, well it does exist, it is described as 'moderate' with a lot of malaysians and chinese. But it was also fairly low in the UK until fairly recently - so maybe the NZ method actually helped stopped trafficking? Which would seem like another reasonable reason for adopting it here.
gotta go in a sec, so just on this part of the rest of your post - no, allowing SOO's or whatever wouldn't stop the existence of pimps and exploitation - I doubt anything would bar a wholesale change in the whole nature of society. But it could well make things a darned site better for many of those women who do feel compelled to work in the sex industry.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Cynthia Payne anyone?
And yet we haven't banned things like jackass on that basis.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
I must admit - having read Fela fan's contributions to the thread I've re-assessed my position. Before, I thought that a swift jail sentence would be appropriate for the flesh renting crowd. Now, however, having seen the ex pat, western sex tourist, dip shit hippy empty his bowel onto the boards I've decided that the firing squad is the way to go.
Death to all pimps and their hippy apologists!
Death to all pimps and their hippy apologists!
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
hehe, I was explicitly thinking of the 'trampfight' (or whatever they were called) vids which were banned iirr
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
tbh, I'm not sure how much that does help. does decriminalised with regulation = decriminalised or legalised? i'd say the latter, tho the link implies it i the former. Whichever, that is the closet thing to the solution I see as most practicable in the here and now
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
oh, and some facts about sex work in Thailand:
Around 80,000 women and children have been sold into Thailand's sex idustry since 1990, with most coming from Burma, China's Yunan province and Laos. Trafficked children were also found on construction sites and in sweatshops. In 1996, almost 200,000 foreign children, mostly boys from Burma, Laos and Cambodia, were thought to be working in Thailand. (Mahidol University's Institute of Population and Social Research, "Trafficking of children on the rise," Bangkok Post, 22 July 1998)
Women from Thailand are trafficked particularly to the Netherlands and Germany of the European Union, Japan, Austrlia, India, Malaysia and nations of the Middle East. ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996) and (CATW - Asia Pacific, Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific)
The internal traffic of Thai females consists mostly of 12-16 year olds from hill tribes of the North/ NorthEast. Most of the internally trafficked girls are sent to closed brothels, which operate under prison-like conditions. (CATW - Asia Pacific, Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific)
Fewer girls from Northern Thailand have entered the sex industry in the past few years. As their numbers decline they are replaced by women and girls from Burma and southern China. (Kritaya Archavanitkul, Institute for Population and Social Research, Mahidol University, The Passage of Women in Neighbouring Countries Into the Sex Trade in Thailand, "Academic urges action in war against flesh trade," Yindee Lertcharoenchok, Mukdawan Sakboon, The Nation, 28 May 1997)
Girls, age 13-15, from Ban Vanaluang, were sold to pimps for 5,00 - 10,000 baht by their parents, who may be drug addicted. The girls are deceived about their destination, which is often Chiang Mai. (Anjira Assavanonda, "Drugs and prostitution flourish in quiet village," Bangkok Post, 3 January 1998)
The Asian economic crisis is leading to an increase in street children in Thailand. Before the crisis the majority (80%) of street children where from poor families; in 1998, 10-15% of the children are from middle class families. The children are involved in prostitution, drugs, and begging. Some have lived in the streets so long and have suffered abuse, that they begin abusing younger street children and trafficking in children for prostitution. Official estimates there are 15,000 street children. ("Expert says Thailand turns into hub of child trafficking," Bangkok Post, 22 September 1998)
Thailand is becoming a center for human trafficking, taking in people from neighboring countries and sending its own citizens to developed nations such as Japan. (Supalak Ganjanakhundee, "Migrant workers booming as Asian economy declines," Kyodo News, 23 September 1998)
all quoted just in case anyone comes across some other wanker who claims sex work in Thailand is totally unlike sex work in western nations. Anyone making such claims is scum.
Around 80,000 women and children have been sold into Thailand's sex idustry since 1990, with most coming from Burma, China's Yunan province and Laos. Trafficked children were also found on construction sites and in sweatshops. In 1996, almost 200,000 foreign children, mostly boys from Burma, Laos and Cambodia, were thought to be working in Thailand. (Mahidol University's Institute of Population and Social Research, "Trafficking of children on the rise," Bangkok Post, 22 July 1998)
Women from Thailand are trafficked particularly to the Netherlands and Germany of the European Union, Japan, Austrlia, India, Malaysia and nations of the Middle East. ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996) and (CATW - Asia Pacific, Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific)
The internal traffic of Thai females consists mostly of 12-16 year olds from hill tribes of the North/ NorthEast. Most of the internally trafficked girls are sent to closed brothels, which operate under prison-like conditions. (CATW - Asia Pacific, Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific)
Fewer girls from Northern Thailand have entered the sex industry in the past few years. As their numbers decline they are replaced by women and girls from Burma and southern China. (Kritaya Archavanitkul, Institute for Population and Social Research, Mahidol University, The Passage of Women in Neighbouring Countries Into the Sex Trade in Thailand, "Academic urges action in war against flesh trade," Yindee Lertcharoenchok, Mukdawan Sakboon, The Nation, 28 May 1997)
Girls, age 13-15, from Ban Vanaluang, were sold to pimps for 5,00 - 10,000 baht by their parents, who may be drug addicted. The girls are deceived about their destination, which is often Chiang Mai. (Anjira Assavanonda, "Drugs and prostitution flourish in quiet village," Bangkok Post, 3 January 1998)
The Asian economic crisis is leading to an increase in street children in Thailand. Before the crisis the majority (80%) of street children where from poor families; in 1998, 10-15% of the children are from middle class families. The children are involved in prostitution, drugs, and begging. Some have lived in the streets so long and have suffered abuse, that they begin abusing younger street children and trafficking in children for prostitution. Official estimates there are 15,000 street children. ("Expert says Thailand turns into hub of child trafficking," Bangkok Post, 22 September 1998)
Thailand is becoming a center for human trafficking, taking in people from neighboring countries and sending its own citizens to developed nations such as Japan. (Supalak Ganjanakhundee, "Migrant workers booming as Asian economy declines," Kyodo News, 23 September 1998)
all quoted just in case anyone comes across some other wanker who claims sex work in Thailand is totally unlike sex work in western nations. Anyone making such claims is scum.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Hippy Scum said:
0
interseting article. i agree with the points BUT was going to ask you so WHAT then can be done .. but in fact the article refers to what the swedes do and that is very interesting
" ..Rather than sanctioning prostitution, states could address the demand by penalizing the men who buy women for the sex of prostitution.
Sweden has drafted legislation recognizing that without male demand, there would be no female supply. Thinking outside the repressive box of legalization, Sweden has acknowledged that prostitution is a form of male violence against women and children, and the purchase of sexual services is criminalized. The inseparability of prostitution and trafficking is recognized by the Swedish law: “Prostitution and trafficking in women are seen as harmful practices that cannot, and should not be separated; in order to effectively eliminate trafficking in women, concrete measures against prostitution must be put in place” (Ekberg, 2003, p. 69).,, " etc etc
Nothing like a bit of sex talk to get folk blue in the face. Coughed yer food up did you mate?
Ahh, such indignance in your language. Hope you managed to calm down.
Facts eh? So easily led down the garden path. I presume you've verified these 'facts' yourself?
You need the whole picture before you can start commenting with any kind of validity.
Scum. Go on mate, spit it out with venom, really screw your face up and scream it out. Go blue lad, go on, go blue, get really angry at the vermin out there.
[who was making those claims anyway mr theory?]
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