Legalising Brothels

[Jeff Robinson]

gawd...no one did, or would, argue that sex work is a 'cool place to work' - but it exists, and pretending it doesn't do doesn't work, as doesn't criminalising the men that pay for it.

And you have evidence that legalising prostitution does work? What of the evidence to the contrary that me and Cyber have linked to? (edit - sorry you've sort of answered that q in the above post).

 

[XR75]

[You?] Sound like your [i think you mean you're] one yourself [The sheer wit! You're clearly not the fucknut I thought you were].[/COLOR]

Commenting on a posters spelling errors when you have nothing better to say.

 

[untethered]

gawd...no one did, or would, argue that sex work is a 'cool place to work' - but it exists, and pretending it doesn't do doesn't work, as doesn't criminalising the men that pay for it.

Very few men would risk using prostitutes if they knew they faced a reasonable certainty of a two-year prison sentence.

Like all crimes (murder, terrorism, etc.) you can't abolish people's misbehaviour. But you can make it entirely unattractive for most people and a great deal more difficult for the determined and persistent.

As a society we should put prostitution firmly beyond the pale. No-one should work as one, no-one should pimp their services in any shape or form, no-one should buy them. The problem with the current situation is that while some aspects of prostitution are nominally illegal, the penalties and enforcement regime aren't strong enough to be a meaningful deterrent.

 

[belboid]

Commenting on a posters spelling errors when you have nothing better to say.

it was certainly better than your shitty contributions to this thread.

 

[zenie]

When are people gonna realise there will always be prostitution whether we like it or not?

 

[belboid]

Very few men would risk using prostitutes if they knew they faced a reasonable certainty of a two-year prison sentence.

but that will never, ever, happen. As was discussed on the programme, all it would mean was the women becoming complicit in moving to an even more unsafe area, where the men would be less likely to be caught.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

There's an interesting piece on the beeb website. A diary by a former street prostitute from Britain on a visit to Sweden where they have introduced a law decriminalising prostitution whilst criminalising those who pay. Here are her conclusions:

My trip was both interesting and enlightening. The law in Sweden has pitfalls and successes.

I have not been to a country where prostitution is legal, as in Holland, but the fact that Sweden has taken huge, bold strides against any form of exploitation of women cannot be bad.

At least if it was implemented in Britain, then many women I know wouldn't be dragged off time and time again by the police.

It could stop the huge influx of foreign criminals bringing in women, some against their will, to fill our country's ever-growing number of massage parlours.

These are issues that up to a week ago I knew little or nothing about.

Now I feel angry for not doing something about it before.

The only way that any policy can change is if we shout loudly enough.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6343325.stm

 

[Jeff Robinson]

When are people gonna realise there will always be prostitution whether we like it or not?

People could have (and did) say the same about slavery.

 

[untethered]

but that will never, ever, happen.

Why not? Change the law and give the police the resources to tackle it and it's done.

As was discussed on the programme, all it would mean was the women becoming complicit in moving to an even more unsafe area, where the men would be less likely to be caught.

I find it hard to imagine how the relative safety of an area would prevent undercover police from discovering a brothel and raiding it.

 

[zenie]

People could have (and did) say the same about slavery.

fuck off

 

[untethered]

People could have (and did) say the same about slavery.

And of course, slavery hasn't been abolished. But it's been minimised, at least in stable democracies.

Ironically, one form of slavery that still exists in this country is sex slavery. Put a huge dent in the prostitution business and you reduce that proportionally, too.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

fuck off

The point being that saying something has always been around so there's no point doing shit about it is in itself a pretty weak (not to mention reactionary) argument.

 

[untethered]

The point being that saying something has always been around so there's no point doing s- about it is in itself a pretty weak (not to mention reactionary) argument.

It's a straw man argument, anyway. No-one believes that prostitution can be eliminated any more than anyone believes that murder can be eliminated.

 

[zenie]

The point being that saying something has always been around so there's no point doing shit about it is in itself a pretty weak argument.

Who said anything about not doing 'shit about it'

My point is if you legalise it you can take away the people trafficking element somewhat because they are licensed brothels with proper inspections.

Comparing prostution which can and is done willingly, (whether you believe that to be true I care not) to slavery is totally crass.

 

[cliche guevara]

Ignoring the argument for a minute, the program was worth watching just for the scene with the butt plug in the amsterdam sex shop.

WI lady: "And what exactly is this for?"

Sex shop worker: "You stick it up your arse."




Genius.

 

[zenie]

Ignoring the argument for a minute, the program was worth watching just for the scene with the butt plug in the amsterdam sex shop.

WI lady: "And what exactly is this for?"

Sex shop worker: "You stick it up your arse."




Genius.

I liked the 'it looks like my hairdryer attachment'

 

[untethered]

My point is if you legalise it you can take away the people trafficking element somewhat because they are licensed brothels with proper inspections.

How does that prevent people setting up unlicensed brothels using trafficked women who are paid less (or not at all) and therefore can offer lower prices?

Why should a customer care if they're using an unlicensed brothel if there's no penalty for doing so?

 

[cliche guevara]

How does that prevent people setting up unlicensed brothels using trafficked women who are paid less (or not at all) and therefore can offer lower prices?

Why should a customer care if they're using an unlicensed brothel if there's no penalty for doing so?

Because the licensed brothels will be cleaner and women would have had regular health checks? No one wants an STI.

 

[belboid]

Why not? Change the law and give the police the resources to tackle it and it's done.

thats a joke, right? As the police are some of the biggest uses of prostitutes, the idea that they would seriously crack down on their clientelle is rather fantabulous. They already have the power and resources required to close down existing brothels. They choose not to.

I find it hard to imagine how the relative safety of an area would prevent undercover police from discovering a brothel and raiding it.

dear god! You honestly think the police would spend the time and money on an undercover op investigating where prostitution was going on? We're not (necessarily) talking about brothels here, its more about car parks and abandoned industrial estates. Places where the women were working together to ensure he men didn't get caught.

 

[zenie]

How does that prevent people setting up unlicensed brothels using trafficked women who are paid less (or not at all) and therefore can offer lower prices?

Why should a customer care if they're using an unlicensed brothel if there's no penalty for doing so?

Because (unlike now) there'd be no reason to have unlicensed brothels, so I'd hope it'd be policed.

Then perhaps that could be looked into, use a legal one or you're done etc.

 

[CyberRose]

When are people gonna realise there will always be prostitution whether we like it or not?

Whether people acknowledge that or not (I do, btw), is irrelevant. The issue is about improving the lives of women working in the sex trade. The arguments for legalisation claim that will improve the lives of prostitutes, I, and others, argue that legalisation of prostitution will not change the lives of prostitutes, create more demand and lead to an increase in people trafficking.

Saying, "people will do it no matter what" is not in any way an argument for legalising something.

 

[belboid]

Why should a customer care if they're using an unlicensed brothel if there's no penalty for doing so?

so would you say it would be okay to use a legal brothel, but not an illegal one? That could work. Bigger penalties for running an unlicensed brothel - with humungous penalties for trafficking/underage girls - also quite practicable

 

[CyberRose]

My point is if you legalise it you can take away the people trafficking element somewhat because they are licensed brothels with proper inspections.

Yea and with women working there absolutely terrified to tell the truth to those inspectors. No different from women scared stiff of their pimps today to complain to the police etc. If brothels are legalised, pimps and the mafia will run them. It will lead to an increase in people trafficking as well as the demand increases and foreign girls are cheaper and apparently more desirable.

Please tell me how prostitutes lives will be any better than they are now if brothels were legalised?

 

[CyberRose]

thats a joke, right? As the police are some of the biggest uses of prostitutes, the idea that they would seriously crack down on their clientelle is rather fantabulous. They already have the power and resources required to close down existing brothels. They choose not to.

Sorry mate but this post is just a crazy argument...

 

[zenie]

Yea and with women working there absolutely terrified to tell the truth to those inspectors. No different from women scared stiff of their pimps today to complain to the police etc. If brothels are legalised, pimps and the mafia will run them. It will lead to an increase in people trafficking as well as the demand increases and foreign girls are cheaper and apparently more desirable.

Please tell me how prostitutes lives will be any better than they are now if brothels were legalised?

But it doesn't have to be like that. Why would the girls need to tell anyone anything? You're arguing the finer points and not looking at the overall picture.

Shall I just repeat myself, or can you admit not everyone thinks the same?

 

[untethered]

Because (unlike now) there'd be no reason to have unlicensed brothels, so I'd hope it'd be policed.

An unlicensed brothel could offer much lower prices as it wouldn't be paying for inspections and various other forms of regulation, and presumably most of those involved wouldn't be paying tax.

Then perhaps that could be looked into, use a legal one or you're done etc.

You could do this, of course. But again, the penalties would have to be sufficiently serious and the likelihood of being caught sufficiently high to make it a meaningful deterrent.

But this whole thing is going full circle. If prostitution is such a bad thing, why not put all this effort into minimising the trade as far as possible, rather than into trying to "sanitise" it?

 

[untethered]

so would you say it would be okay to use a legal brothel, but not an illegal one? That could work.

While one might be worse than the other in practice, they're both sufficiently bad to lead me to think that the approach that reduces the greatest amount of harm to the greatest number of people is one that seeks to diminish the size of the industry overall, not one that tries to improve the working conditions of those within a stable or growing industry.

What's so great about prostitution that the state should expend its resources on perpetuating or even expanding it?

 

[belboid]

Sorry mate but this post is just a crazy argument...

but which bit is wrong? It might be crazy, but it's also the truth.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

My point is if you legalise it you can take away the people trafficking element somewhat because they are licensed brothels with proper inspections.

Actually the evidence suggests the opposite. In Sweden, where the purchase of sex has been made illegal they have all but eradicated the problem of sex trafficking, which no other European country can boast.

I’m not convinced by the legal brothels argument either. Research into the Netherlands has indicated the existence of legal brothels has led to a growth of parallel illegal brothels, as well as sex trafficking and other forms of criminal activity. When the Pandora’s box of being able to rent out women’s bodies has been opened the practice proliferates throughout society – both legally and illegally - with all the negative problems associated with illegal prostitution exacerbated.

 

[CyberRose]

But it doesn't have to be like that. Why would the girls need to tell anyone anything? You're arguing the finer points and not looking at the overall picture.

My point is, who exactly do you think will be running these legalised brothels? It will be the people running the brothels now, only they won't be able to be prosecuted for doing so. What makes you think, if the ownership is the same, that the lives of the prostitutes will be any more improved?

My other points are that as prostitution is seen as acceptable, the demand will increase. I think this will lead to an increase in people trafficking, either for licensed or unlicensed brothels.