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Labour leadership

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chilango said:
I am astonished that there is any defence of free spirit registering as a Labour supporter to vote for Corbyn at the same time as being not just a Green Party member but an activist (campaign manager iirc?).

If I was a GP member in his branch I'd be calling for his expulsion. Really damaging behaviour. The same for anyone else in the GP or other parties.
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how's it damaging to sign up as a registered supporter to vote for the candidate the Green Party would most like to work with as Labour leader?

It's not against the GP rules either, nowt in there about becoming a registered supporter of another party, which is clearly different to actually signing up as a properly paid up member.

Personally I'm sick of this tribal party bullshit, those parties on the left have to find ways to work together, and Labour are the missing ingredient to actually getting anything significant done. If they can be turned from the neoliberal path then that potentially changes the situation massively, and suddenly makes it a significant possibility that some sort of non-neoliberal coalition could be in government at the next election.

if it pisses the neoliberal leadership of the labour party off, then I'll take that as a bonus. I find it interesting to note who on here is the most up in arms about this as well... suddenly they care about the internal democratic integrity of parties most of them have been slagging off for years (I'm aware you voted Green so that's aimed elsewhere).

The Green Party generally seems to be a bit more tolerant and open to collaborative working than is perhaps the norm in parties where the party is all, and everything must be done via the party, so I doubt they're about to have a purge of members who've done the £3 to vote for corbyn thing.
 
frogwoman said:
But someone who worked as a campaign manager and is an activist for the Greens should obviously not be joining labour. Sorry free spirit I actually like you but you're totally wrong on this one. :D
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I haven't joined labour.

ps when I first looked at this supporters thing there was fuck all on the page about it other than pay your £3 and get the right to vote in the leadership contest, which to me actually looked like a good attempt to open up the internal democracy of the labour party rather than just leaving it to their dwindling supporter base.

Here's the original version of that page from the wayback when machine from May
 
butchersapron said:
That's exactly my point you prat, that you took the lost never-to-return lib-dem votes who would otherwise have voted labour, thereby putting the lib-dems out of the seat and labour in. That's why you shouldn't be voting in the labour leadership election - you're a member of a rival party seeking to damage to the labour party. Did you really think i was claiming that you took your rise in votes from labour, whose vote went up by 9%?
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no, the extra Green voters in the Council still voted lib dem in the national election, but voted for the Greens in the locals. Had we persuaded more of them to vote Green in the national as well as the locals then Labour would have been pretty much neck and neck with the Lib dems (but still lost). Labour obviously didn't persuade them to vote for them either.

Had the greens not stood then the lib dems would have won by a bigger margin IMO.

You'd have to believe that all 7% of the Green vote would have voted labour rather than Lib Dem, to believe that we somehow stopped labour from winning here given that the winning margin was 6.7%, and that's pure fantasy land bollocks.

Labour didn't take a single one of the 16 town council seats, all of which were up for election in Otley, which is the biggest ward in the constituency, it's now entirely lib dem other than 1 Green, 1 independent. The Lib Dems hold 6 out of the 12 council seats in the constituency, Tories hold 3, Labour hold 3, all in the ward with the lowest turnout by a significant margin. They'd not made any inroads into any of the other wards prior to the General election.

What makes you think Labour were on track to have won here had it not been for the Green votes? They barely campaigned in the 2nd biggest ward (where the Lib dem vote went up), were apparently having to pay people to distribute leaflets, and had to print and distribute an apology for misrepresenting the lib dem MPs voting record and give him £2k compensation. Outside of Headingley their campaign was pretty shambolic. The Lib Dems by contrast ran a far better campaign, pretty much a text book operation that steamrollered over both Greens and Labour everywhere other than Headingley, with the tories somehow winning the posh bit yet again while barely lifting a finger.

but obviously you know more about what went on here than me.

eta not that I was that arsed either way as they were both neoliberal austerity promoting parties at the election, but ultimately I'd have preferred the Labour version to the Tory version. If Labour turns and rejects neoliberalism as the failed economic model that it is, then that'd be a bit of a different situation, hence my participation in this thread and that vote.

[/derail]
 
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free spirit said:
btw 17 states in the US have open primaries for the parties to choose their presidential candidates, so it's not that unheard of an idea to want to open up the process of selecting candidates beyond the narrow membership based of that party.
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IIRC that was the initial model for Labour. Voters of other parties signing up to influence the primary election seems to happen whenever there is an election.
 
Why can't all the parties and politicians just put their differences aside, get together and work for the common good?

Bleugh.
 
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free spirit said:
how's it damaging to sign up as a registered supporter to vote for the candidate the Green Party would most like to work with as Labour leader?

It's not against the GP rules either, nowt in there about becoming a registered supporter of another party, which is clearly different to actually signing up as a properly paid up member.

Personally I'm sick of this tribal party bullshit, those parties on the left have to find ways to work together, and Labour are the missing ingredient to actually getting anything significant done. If they can be turned from the neoliberal path then that potentially changes the situation massively, and suddenly makes it a significant possibility that some sort of non-neoliberal coalition could be in government at the next election.

if it pisses the neoliberal leadership of the labour party off, then I'll take that as a bonus. I find it interesting to note who on here is the most up in arms about this as well... suddenly they care about the internal democratic integrity of parties most of them have been slagging off for years (I'm aware you voted Green so that's aimed elsewhere).

The Green Party generally seems to be a bit more tolerant and open to collaborative working than is perhaps the norm in parties where the party is all, and everything must be done via the party, so I doubt they're about to have a purge of members who've done the £3 to vote for corbyn thing.
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Sorry, but if this represents the Green Party's views then I wouldn't be voting for them again.

I don't believe it does (though I might be wrong) but rather that of a minority of generally newish members who are likely to be more transient.

Anyhow, that's for the Green Party to decide.
 
JFTR: I was curious about the attitude Labour on this one, i.e. whether they wanted it to be truly open or not. So I checked out the 'register as a supporter' option. The terms and conditions at the bottom ask you to agree to this:

I agree that the Labour Party and its elected representatives may contact me using the data supplied. I support the aims and values of the Labour Party, and I am not a supporter of any organisation opposed to it.
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You can argue about how that should be interpreted but it's definitely not intended to just be open.
 
free spirit said:
no, the extra Green voters in the Council still voted lib dem in the national election, but voted for the Greens in the locals. Had we persuaded more of them to vote Green in the national as well as the locals then Labour would have been pretty much neck and neck with the Lib dems (but still lost). Labour obviously didn't persuade them to vote for them either.

Had the greens not stood then the lib dems would have won by a bigger margin IMO.

You'd have to believe that all 7% of the Green vote would have voted labour rather than Lib Dem, to believe that we somehow stopped labour from winning here given that the winning margin was 6.7%, and that's pure fantasy land bollocks.

Labour didn't take a single one of the 16 town council seats, all of which were up for election in Otley, which is the biggest ward in the constituency, it's now entirely lib dem other than 1 Green, 1 independent. The Lib Dems hold 6 out of the 12 council seats in the constituency, Tories hold 3, Labour hold 3, all in the ward with the lowest turnout by a significant margin. They'd not made any inroads into any of the other wards prior to the General election.

What makes you think Labour were on track to have won here had it not been for the Green votes? They barely campaigned in the 2nd biggest ward (where the Lib dem vote went up), were apparently having to pay people to distribute leaflets, and had to print and distribute an apology for misrepresenting the lib dem MPs voting record and give him £2k compensation. Outside of Headingley their campaign was pretty shambolic. The Lib Dems by contrast ran a far better campaign, pretty much a text book operation that steamrollered over both Greens and Labour everywhere other than Headingley, with the tories somehow winning the posh bit yet again while barely lifting a finger.

but obviously you know more about what went on here than me.

eta not that I was that arsed either way as they were both neoliberal austerity promoting parties at the election, but ultimately I'd have preferred the Labour version to the Tory version. If Labour turns and rejects neoliberalism as the failed economic model that it is, then that'd be a bit of a different situation, hence my participation in this thread and that vote.

[/derail]
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Forget all that council mumbo jumbo, if the green voters you took from the lib-dems (and the other greens, hey we're all on the same team) had voted labour, they would have won that seat and kicked out the lib-dem. They didn't, and one reason they didn't is because you (and i mean you personally here as pushy campaign manager) campaigned against them. Then three month later, whilst remaining an active green party member, you sign a form that says

I support the aims and values of the Labour Party, and I am not a supporter of any organisation opposed to it.
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And you don't see a problem?

Let's be clear, i couldn't give a shit about labour internal democracy (and haven't actually posted about it). I'm just pointing out the behaviour of the labour-->lib-dem-->greens-->labour herd and the utter lack of principle our supposed betters have in their post-modern pick and mix political consumerism. The last time i heard this tribalism stuff btw was when this lot were urging a lib-dem vote in 2010.
 
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kabbes said:
JFTR: I was curious about the attitude Labour on this one, i.e. whether they wanted it to be truly open or not. So I checked out the 'register as a supporter' option. The terms and conditions at the bottom ask you to agree to this:

You can argue about how that should be interpreted but it's definitely not intended to just be open.
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Oddly enough, that has been mentioned once or twice.
 
Y'know what? If I see one of my local Green councillors about I'll raise this issue with him. See what they think about their Party activists getting involved in in internal Labour Party stuff.
 
Needless to say, it didn’t quite work out that way. The view that politicians and bureaucrats should direct, dictate, tax and control economic activity, while tragically misguided, is ingrained deep in the human psyche. The battle of ideas is never won: it turns out that the 1990s were the years of peak capitalism in the West, and Left-wing ideas have since made a return, to the great regret of commentators such as myself.


:facepalm:
 
interviews with the contenders in this months Labour Research. Well, I say contenders, but its only actually three of them, Kendall didn't bother to reply. It would probably have been better for Burnham if he hadn't either, his were awful.
 
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