chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I dunno. I think there's plenty of sincerity. It's just not on our side.
Labour leadership
- Thread starter oryx
- Start date
I dunno. I think there's plenty of sincerity. It's just not on our side.
A veneer as far as I can tell, and one which changes with the light. Not that it matters, seeing as no matter how deep it goes on the red tories, it won't be in favour of us.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
What fucks me off with @articul8, is that posts such as yours should be the ones he's connecting with, not making ridiculous offensive remarks, shouting 'ultra left splitters!!1!' and then pissing off again for a few weeks before re-appearing on another theory thread using impenetrable language.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
we've all tried to engage with articul8 in the past but it's very hard when he comes out with such clap-trap, when on the one hand he wants to seem all radical and revolutionary and on the other hand believes the labour party is the only game in town. there's the dichotomy between his image of labour and labour in reality which he seems unable to resolve.
sunnysidedown
caput mortuum
the blokes a plonker.
The problem is saying Labour is there for the weak ain't going to cut the mustard nowadays is it? People don't like to think of themselves as weak
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Off to get me corbyn tat in a bit.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yes, that's the hegemonic cultural reality, but I'd suggest the problem is that, with a few exceptions, those in the PLP no longer hold those values or challenge neo-lib attacks on the weak,let alone articulate them.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
that's because, i submit, those in the plp almost without exception (and those exceptions being broadly the members of the campaign group) accept or hold neo-liberal values.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yep. Using their own favourite term, their aspirations for the state extend no further than seeking to be part of the grand coalition managing its transition from welfare status, through debt status to the consolidator status demanded by 'the markets' of financialised capital.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Corbyn's biggest strength, and simultaneously, biggest weakness is that he fits the role of "loony labour left" perfectly to allow those to the left of him and the Neo-Thatcherites to the right to play at recreating the 80s when they missed it first time round. It shows the knits of their political horizons.
Remind me to insert Rhe Vaselines "I hate the Eighties" here. It's spt for the daft retro fetishists.
Remind me to insert Rhe Vaselines "I hate the Eighties" here. It's spt for the daft retro fetishists.
Zabo
Well-Known Member
free spirit
more tea vicar?
After watching the 2 interviews on that youtube link, I'm pretty impressed with Corbyn.
It's a shame about most of the rest of the parliamentary labour party, though if the new labour mob all refuse to be in a shadow cabinet with him, then that might partially solve that problem... good riddance for most of them.
It's a shame about most of the rest of the parliamentary labour party, though if the new labour mob all refuse to be in a shadow cabinet with him, then that might partially solve that problem... good riddance for most of them.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
My honest, gut feeling, which is honestly not coming from anything anyone has said here, is fuck the labour party, and fuck the 'labour left' (or at least the institutions of it)
I have disliked the labour party for a very very long time. The main reason is I'll never forgive them for going in to iraq. Only a handful of Labour MPs and only one member of the cabinet, Robin Cook, resigned over it. Had Blair not agreed to go into Iraq there is a very good chance that Bush would have made the invasion a far more limited one than what happened solely consisting of air strikes or whatever, if not had to pull out altogether. The organisation founded by Abu Musab al Zarqawi, who we have all come to know and 'love', would thus have remained a tiny group carrying out the odd bombing here and there but nothing special. Blairs govt gave Bush's actions legitimacy and added large scale military support.
Labour laid the ground work for the welfare cuts, there is a thread on here started by Blagsta called 'welfare cuts and poverty' which was begun during Blair's rule. I think that thread was started when I was still at school. People are acting like the cuts only started under the Tories but they actually began much earlier than that. I remember talking to a woman once about the Iraq war demo when i was an SP member and talking about how it got me into politics, and she replied that on that day she was also on a demo but it was a local one, protesting against the closure of a daycare centre due to cuts in the council . Remember that brazilian guy who got shot on the tube? Remember 'british jobs for british workers' and PFI??
When i was in the SP i saw countless examples of sectarianism by some (not all) labour members that made me not want to touch their organisation with a barge pole. On just about every local demo labour speakers would stand up and tell people the way to stop this is always to vote labour, every single time. One of the worst examples was in 2011 when it was the public sector strikes and the SP which were always fairly active had done a lot of the work in the unions on getting people out, and during the speeches afterwards this guy in the labour party stood up and started banging on about 'sectarian groups' meaning the SP, and almost no mention of the strikes at all, when the SP had been instrumental of getting people out, whatever I think about these tactics now or whatever my view is of the SP.
I also really dislike this 'THERE IS NO LIFE OUTSIDE THE PARTY' attitude a lot of labour supporters seem to have. Its just vanguardism, assuming that everything which doesnt involve labour being elected or the 'labour left' is shit and not worth bothering about. I don't have much time for the SP's politics these days but at least they were trying to start something different. Good luck to Corbyn and im glad to see anything that pisses off Blairites but really the faith that some people are placing in labour over this imo is just going to lead to disappointment and reminds me a lot of what people thought about Russell Brand and others. There's loads of local stuff beyond Labour there are some groups starting here which look really positive such as People's Political Economy and a few others. Shit even the local AFN round here. These developments are really positive and id hate to see people giving up and going back to Labour.
Sorry that this post is a bit of a rant and might have some factual errors in it but this is my gut feelings. I just dont want to be pressurised into giving money to a party I don't like or feeling I have to support them in any way. As far as corbyn goes im just indifferent and i can definitely see signs of things changing but when it does it's not going to come from labour or probably not electoral politics in general. These days I would call myself a left communist but my dislike of the labour party is fairly visceral and not really to do with any ideology or theories ive read, for many people especially young people in not traditional 'Labour areas' or in unionised industries, im sure many, many people feel the same way tbh.
I have disliked the labour party for a very very long time. The main reason is I'll never forgive them for going in to iraq. Only a handful of Labour MPs and only one member of the cabinet, Robin Cook, resigned over it. Had Blair not agreed to go into Iraq there is a very good chance that Bush would have made the invasion a far more limited one than what happened solely consisting of air strikes or whatever, if not had to pull out altogether. The organisation founded by Abu Musab al Zarqawi, who we have all come to know and 'love', would thus have remained a tiny group carrying out the odd bombing here and there but nothing special. Blairs govt gave Bush's actions legitimacy and added large scale military support.
Labour laid the ground work for the welfare cuts, there is a thread on here started by Blagsta called 'welfare cuts and poverty' which was begun during Blair's rule. I think that thread was started when I was still at school. People are acting like the cuts only started under the Tories but they actually began much earlier than that. I remember talking to a woman once about the Iraq war demo when i was an SP member and talking about how it got me into politics, and she replied that on that day she was also on a demo but it was a local one, protesting against the closure of a daycare centre due to cuts in the council . Remember that brazilian guy who got shot on the tube? Remember 'british jobs for british workers' and PFI??
When i was in the SP i saw countless examples of sectarianism by some (not all) labour members that made me not want to touch their organisation with a barge pole. On just about every local demo labour speakers would stand up and tell people the way to stop this is always to vote labour, every single time. One of the worst examples was in 2011 when it was the public sector strikes and the SP which were always fairly active had done a lot of the work in the unions on getting people out, and during the speeches afterwards this guy in the labour party stood up and started banging on about 'sectarian groups' meaning the SP, and almost no mention of the strikes at all, when the SP had been instrumental of getting people out, whatever I think about these tactics now or whatever my view is of the SP.
I also really dislike this 'THERE IS NO LIFE OUTSIDE THE PARTY' attitude a lot of labour supporters seem to have. Its just vanguardism, assuming that everything which doesnt involve labour being elected or the 'labour left' is shit and not worth bothering about. I don't have much time for the SP's politics these days but at least they were trying to start something different. Good luck to Corbyn and im glad to see anything that pisses off Blairites but really the faith that some people are placing in labour over this imo is just going to lead to disappointment and reminds me a lot of what people thought about Russell Brand and others. There's loads of local stuff beyond Labour there are some groups starting here which look really positive such as People's Political Economy and a few others. Shit even the local AFN round here. These developments are really positive and id hate to see people giving up and going back to Labour.
Sorry that this post is a bit of a rant and might have some factual errors in it but this is my gut feelings. I just dont want to be pressurised into giving money to a party I don't like or feeling I have to support them in any way. As far as corbyn goes im just indifferent and i can definitely see signs of things changing but when it does it's not going to come from labour or probably not electoral politics in general. These days I would call myself a left communist but my dislike of the labour party is fairly visceral and not really to do with any ideology or theories ive read, for many people especially young people in not traditional 'Labour areas' or in unionised industries, im sure many, many people feel the same way tbh.
Zabo
Well-Known Member
Good post Frogwoman. I still struggle with the fact that the 'inclusive' Labour Party can see fit to expel Dave Nellist and others yet provide safe harbour for the multi-millionaire war criminal.
I'm hoping that Corbyn has at least lit the blue touch paper. Where the bang will take place I don't know. If nothing else he's brought some of the issues to life. It's either that or listen to the likes of Umunna mimicking the utterances of any Vermin you wish to choose.
I'm hoping that Corbyn has at least lit the blue touch paper. Where the bang will take place I don't know. If nothing else he's brought some of the issues to life. It's either that or listen to the likes of Umunna mimicking the utterances of any Vermin you wish to choose.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
I'm sure most of us are aware of all of that Froggy, virtually all my protesting against various aspects of neoliberal policies was done under the new labour government.
But ultimately getting someone who as far as I can tell doesn't subscribe to that neoliberal mindset elected as leader of the labour party can only be seen as a positive step in that fight against neoliberalism and all that entails.
If he wins and the neoliberal mob mount a coup and force him out, then that will at least finally end that debat / split the labour party. If he wins and they fail in their coup attempts, then maybe they'll split away and form their version of the sdp.
Whatever happens, him winning would in itself be a political earthquake, the ramifications of which are hard to predict (other than the media and political big wigs mounting a vicious campaign against him).
none of that means that the past problems with the labour party are / should be forgotten, but fighting against that would be far more likely to succeed with the labour party leader roughly on the same page on most of it than it would with another neolib labour stooge up there.
But ultimately getting someone who as far as I can tell doesn't subscribe to that neoliberal mindset elected as leader of the labour party can only be seen as a positive step in that fight against neoliberalism and all that entails.
If he wins and the neoliberal mob mount a coup and force him out, then that will at least finally end that debat / split the labour party. If he wins and they fail in their coup attempts, then maybe they'll split away and form their version of the sdp.
Whatever happens, him winning would in itself be a political earthquake, the ramifications of which are hard to predict (other than the media and political big wigs mounting a vicious campaign against him).
none of that means that the past problems with the labour party are / should be forgotten, but fighting against that would be far more likely to succeed with the labour party leader roughly on the same page on most of it than it would with another neolib labour stooge up there.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Of course it wouldnt be a bad thing in terms of getting these arguments a wider exposure but asking people to register their support of labour and pay £3 towards it is worse than useless. And as i said there are actually some really positive, exciting things happening outside the terrain of electoral politics and I think the fact that labour doesnt monopolise the political landscape is a positive thing or could be turned into one.
Zabo
Well-Known Member
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
The other thing, and this is honestly not a dig at anyone, is that what left communists have been banging on about since the year dot, that the election of a social democratic government is no longer possible under todays conditions. Its not that it wouldnt be a good thing or that i dont want it, its just no longer possible and as the example of Greece shows and Tsipras (who i actually quite like to be honest) was forced to adopt neo liberal policies or face the total ruin of the country, its similar with Obama (who tbh i also like and think was genuine) who at the beginning of his career was a centrist, perhaps even a social democrat, but he had absolutely no choice but to follow the policies of capitalism and dictates of capital. And this isnt a good thing, its just a thing, and im not saying that my solutions or ideas are perfect, but electoral politics is no longer the way to go except in a tactical setting or with strong local candidates or campaigns such as anti bedroom tax or National Health Action Party etc. Some people think electoral campaigns are always a total waste of time in any situation and I dont think I agree. But if you think that someone can overturn 30 or 40 years of neoliberalism within their own party let alone the country you're gonna be very disappointed. I would like corbyn to win too but I don't think it will the all powerful development people think it will and I hope I am wrong but I dont think so. 
I think that if more people went in to politics with that attitude we could, potentially start to see the beginnings of something really good emerge. Im not just cynical for no reason there are things that are really good happening in my area its just that they're not really to do with labour or electoralism although individual labour supporters could be involved.
I think that if more people went in to politics with that attitude we could, potentially start to see the beginnings of something really good emerge. Im not just cynical for no reason there are things that are really good happening in my area its just that they're not really to do with labour or electoralism although individual labour supporters could be involved.
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free spirit
more tea vicar?
it's less than the cost of a pint as a one off fee, to be able to potentially help influence the result of what looks to be an unexpectedly close run election for labour leader between a left candidate and the status quo.
I don't know about others, but I'm certainly not intending to do anything other than vote in that election, unless maybe corbyn wins, at which point I guess I'd have to evaluate the situation.
The Labour party still has probably the biggest contingent of left of centre MPs in parliament. The new labour project have lost pretty much all their big hitters, and it looks like the party in general isn't buying the line that they need to move further right to chase tory votes having just lost an entire country to a challenge from the left, so it looks possible that the new labour project might now be vulnerable to a challenge from the left in a way that it's not been for a long time.
Like it or not, over the next 5 years if any tory policies are to be defeated then it will need the support of the labour party to do it, and that support is far more likely to come with Corbyn as leader than any of the others.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
my old dear 'Surely if corbyn wins he'll have to purge the shadow cabinet?' (slight emphasis on the 'purge' thereThe other thing, and this is honestly not a dig at anyone, is that what left communists have been banging on about since the year dot, that the election of a social democratic government is no longer possible under todays conditions. Its not that it wouldnt be a good thing or that i dont want it, its just no longer possible and as the example of Greece shows and Tsipras (who i actually quite like to be honest) was forced to adopt neo liberal policies or face the total ruin of the country, its similar with Obama (who tbh i also like and think was genuine) who at the beginning of his career was a centrist, perhaps even a social democrat, but he had absolutely no choice but to follow the policies of capitalism and dictates of capital. And this isnt a good thing, its just a thing, and im not saying that my solutions or ideas are perfect, but electoral politics is no longer the way to go except in a tactical setting or with strong local candidates or campaigns such as anti bedroom tax or National Health Action Party etc. Some people think electoral campaigns are always a total waste of time in any situation and I dont think I agree. But if you think that someone can overturn 30 or 40 years of neoliberalism within their own party let alone the country you're gonna be very disappointed. I would like corbyn to win too but I don't think it will the all powerful development people think it will and I hope I am wrong but I dont think so.
)Yeah when the media went all out to portray Ed as the second coming of vladmir illich I was amused, watching the guardian/statesman et al clutch its pearls in horror is better though.
Zabo
Well-Known Member
Just out of interest. There have been countless reports about what will happen if 'The Left' gain power. Threats of a coup or a more hard line right - if that is possible? - or even a new style SDP. If 'The Left' are trounced by whatever means where will they go? Will they stay in the same institutionalised party and lick their wounds or breakaway? Given the estimated support they are getting it would surely be foolish to stay and fight another day.
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