Labour leadership

[Smokeandsteam]

oh right, Corbyn is a left reformist traitor-in-waiting. I see.

Corbyn is a radical social democrat.

 

[ViolentPanda]

oh right, Corbyn is a left reformist traitor-in-waiting. I see.

He's a committed member of the Labour Party, therefore he is by definition a "reformist".

 

[Pickman's model]

The LRC's organisation model isn't fit for purpose - but it's politics most certainly are, and are at the heart of JC's campaign. I expect the labour left to relaunch itself organisationally out of this, and on a much more substantial footing.

The fact of him winning would be the equivalent to the scottish radical insurgency - he'd face a fight, of course. But I genuinely don't think plodding on with the others is any kind of strategy for success. Quite the opposite.

i'll tell you a little secret. christ's second coming will happen before labour turn socialist.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

He's a committed member of the Labour Party, therefore he is by definition a "reformist".

The economic strategy he outline this week and which he is campaigning on is basically Keynesian. So if you don't support him you are Tony Blair.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The economic strategy he outline this week and which he is campaigning on is basically Keynesian. So if you don't support him you are Tony Blair.

Well, I am a pretty straight kinda guy!

 

[stethoscope]

No, you're right in the sense that actually the anarcho/libertarian left is so marginal as to make very little difference ot anything. But the rules of the game mean there is a real opportunity for people who want a radical anti-austerity debate to be driven into the heart of the political "mainstream" to put their money where their mouths are.

I wouldn't describe myself as 'anarcho/libertarian left' (whilst I have shifted significantly to the left in recent years from being democratic socialist), but your fucking divisive, snidey, bubble bullshit (again) this morning has really pissed me off. How about looking at the fucking mess inside the Labour Party (those who are already galvanising in numbers to stop Corbyn winning/or plotting to unseat him if he does), not directing your ire towards those of us electorate/past Labour supporters who might or might not vote for him (my heart says to vote, my head says no, my head's winning the battle right now).

You really are the worst purveyor of 'how to win and influence people' I've ever seen.

 

[Pickman's model]

I wouldn't describe myself as 'anarcho/libertarian left' (whilst I have shifted significantly to the left in recent years from being democratic socialist), but your fucking divisive, snidey, bubble bullshit (again) this morning has really pissed me off. How about looking at the fucking mess inside the Labour Party (those who are already galvanising in numbers to stop Corbyn winning/or plotting to unseat him if he does), not directing your ire towards those of us electorate/past Labour supporters who might or might not vote for him (my heart says to vote, my head says no).

You really are the worst purveyor of 'how to win and influence people' I've ever seen.

tbh watching articul8 talk about the labour party is a bit like watching someone in an abusive relationship. they get smacked and smacked and smacked but STILL they think they can change things round.

 

[Wilf]

Well, I am a pretty straight kinda guy!

(Look, y'know)

 

[andysays]

i'll tell you a little secret. christ's second coming will happen before labour turn socialist.

No, no, according to articul8's thinking, Corbyn is the new messiah who will save us all (check his initials for confirmation )

 

[articul8]

The economic strategy he outline this week and which he is campaigning on is basically Keynesian. So if you don't support him you are Tony Blair.

Of course it's entirely legitimate to mount a left critique of his ideas - and if he was putting forward that programme at in some immediately pre-revolutionary context it would really matter. But from where we are now, it's a hell of sight healthier than what the rest of the candidates are arguing. Arguing that austerity is a political choice rather than an economic inevitability etc....

The fact that he's come from rank outsider to front runner is an indication of the anger inside and outside the party at how fucking useless the leadership has been on any of these questions.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

(Look, y'know)

It's no time for soundbites - but I think articul8 feels the hand of history on JC's shoulder....

 

[articul8]

[edit - silly response]

 

[articul8]

He's a committed member of the Labour Party, therefore he is by definition a "reformist".

not at all - Militant were "committed members of the LP" but not reformists

 

[Wilf]

[edit - silly response]

Finally!

 

[Wilf]

not at all - Militant were "committed members of the LP" but not reformists

No, they were entryists, so not committed members of the labour party.

 

[Pickman's model]

[yeh but there's no refuge and have to think about the kids]

yeh, i meant to mention that. these would be the kids who have had to pay fees at university, fees brought in by er the labour party (and of course the nus which might have supported the kids had under the leadership of labour's jim murphy moved away in 1995 from its position of a return from maintenance loans to grants and benefits). not to mention the way the labour party's done such a shit job of representing young people for the past five years let alone the past 20.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

But from where we are now, it's a hell of sight healthier than what the rest of the candidates are arguing. Arguing that austerity is a political choice rather than an economic inevitability etc....

Agreed. Pretty much everyone on here would acknowledge that/have said it.

But to suggest that, on that basis, unless you join Labour and vote for him you are a Blairite/ultra left sectarian is frankly idiotic.

 

[ViolentPanda]

not at all - Militant were "committed members of the LP" but not reformists

Militant weren't committed Labourites, they were entryists using the Labour party as a structure for assuming a degree of political power.

 

[articul8]

yeh, i meant to mention that. these would be the kids who have had to pay fees at university, fees brought in by er the labour party (and of course the nus which might have supported the kids had under the leadership of labour's jim murphy moved away in 1995 from its position of a return from maintenance loans to grants and benefits). not to mention the way the labour party's done such a shit job of representing young people for the past five years let alone the past 20.

yes but it's young people who are especially responding the JC's campaign - they do understand more than anyone that we need to turn the page on the New Labour years and have a LP that really fights for their interests. First thing JC should do if he gets in - refound LPYS.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course it's entirely legitimate to mount a left critique of his ideas - and if he was putting forward that programme at in some immediately pre-revolutionary context it would really matter. But from where we are now, it's a hell of sight healthier than what the rest of the candidates are arguing. Arguing that austerity is a political choice rather than an economic inevitability etc....

The fact that he's come from rank outsider to front runner is an indication of the anger inside and outside the party at how fucking useless the leadership has been on any of these questions.

everyone knows that austerity is a political choice. everyone also knows that corbyn would barely warm the leather of the front bench before he'd be chucked out by the tina tories in labour clothes. and will you leave the party if that happens? hell no! you'll stay in the party whining about how you're working to bring the lp back to its roots.

 

[Pickman's model]

yes but it's young people who are especially responding the JC's campaign - they do understand more than anyone that we need to turn the page on the New Labour years and have a LP that really fights for their interests. First thing JC should do if he gets in - refound LPYS.

the second thing will be to fight another leadership election.

 

[articul8]

Militant weren't committed Labourites, they were entryists using the Labour party as a structure for assuming a degree of political power.

so is JC but he's deeper in

 

[Pickman's model]

so is JC but he's deeper in

the thing about entryists is it doesn't work if there's only one.

 

[articul8]

everyone knows that austerity is a political choice. everyone also knows that corbyn would barely warm the leather of the front bench before he'd be chucked out by the tina tories in labour clothes. and will you leave the party if that happens? hell no! you'll stay in the party whining about how you're working to bring the lp back to its roots.

Depends on the circumstances - but bring that fight on. A fight like that played out across the national media would be priceless for building a mass movement against the buggers

 

[articul8]

the thing about entryists is it doesn't work if there's only one.

there are quite a lot - but less well organised and drilled than the Millies. But the positive side is that we can't be picked off as easily.

 

[ViolentPanda]

so is JC but he's deeper in

Sorry, that's bollocks. Corbyn isn't an entryist, he's a dyed-in-the-wool '70s Labourite social democrat.

 

[Pickman's model]

Depends on the circumstances - but bring that fight on. A fight like that played out across the national media would be priceless for building a mass movement against the buggers

grand. have you noticed how long one of these labour leadership contests take? and how effective the labour party have been in opposition while it's all going on? and as a loyal labour party member you're saying, let's have another four months after that?

bring it on.

destroy the labour party.

 

[butchersapron]

Jesus, the labour party as potential expression of 'hard left anti-imperialism' is just so out there that it might as well have been done a parody of some che wearing 14 year old middle class revo-socialist stereotype. Astonishing. To think that picarda has his feet more on the ground than you as regards the labour party.

 

[articul8]

Jesus, the labour party as potential expression of 'hard left anti-imperialism' is just so out there that it might as well have been done a parody of some che wearing 14 year old middle class revo-socialist stereotype. Astonishing. To think that picarda has his feet more on the ground than you as regards the labour party.

I'm talking about what would be possible to begin building out of a revitalised party under a radical left leadership - of course it's a quantum leap from the party as it exists today.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm talking about what would be possible to begin building out of a revitalised party under a radical left leadership - of course it's a quantum leap from the party as it exists today.

you're delusional.