Labour leadership

[ViolentPanda]

can't really find much to fault in that- as I'm sure you know NATO was formed to cohere the various arms and armies of western europe in opposition to the warsaw pact countries. Not to be an international military force that operates outside the bounds of the UN. I mean, they called the league of nations a paper tiger but when the fuck have the blue helmets actually sorted anything out? never. Watched the rwandan massacre and did nothing.

Also have spent decades watching the IDF murder Palestinians and done nothing, plus hundreds of other offences against humanity.

But that doesn't give NATO the right to go around acting like the armed wing of dominant capitalist nations now does it. Standardised ammo. Thats the sole good thing they did (for a given value of good obvs).

And, to be fair, standardisation would have happened anyway,just later.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What does Corbyn's strong support among UKIP voters say to those who write them all off as racist idiots?

You ask that like you can't believe that people could easily live with the cognitive dissonance.

 

[Ole]

I found this amusing....

“Tell me what you think is more radical,” she asked: “spending billions of pounds we haven’t got switching control of some power stations from a group of white middle aged men in an energy company to a group of white middle aged men in Whitehall as Jeremy wants, or extending Sure Start, giving mothers the power and confidence to transform their own lives and transform their children’s lives for years to come?"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...hoice-now-Jeremy-Corbyn-or-Yvette-Cooper.html

What a twat. The clip showed on the news the other day was almost as bad.

"What is more radical? Is it a Labour Party ... to be led again by a leader and a deputy leader who are both white men? Or is it to smash our own glass ceiling, and to get Labour's first elected woman leader, and first woman Prime Minister as well, who is really the radical?! Jeremy or me?!"



We've had a woman Prime Minister Yvette. Remember?

 

[killer b]

You ask that like you can't believe that people could easily live with the cognitive dissonance.

What?

 

[ViolentPanda]

What?

You asked "What does Corbyn's strong support among UKIP voters say to those who write them all off as racist idiots?".
It's fairly obvious that what it says is that UKIP support is a bit more complex than the "UKIP: Gateway drug to fascism" line that has been touted far and wide, but that some commentators still stick with that line.
So, my point is that your question reads like you can't see that such commentators could easily live with the dissonance between what actually is (UKIP supporters being somewhat more complex than "racist idiots), and what they want to see (UKIP supporters as simple racist fuckwits).

 

[J Ed]

tbf i think she comes across better than cooper who reminds me of an enthusiastic but slightly patronising schoolteacher

I don't think she'd last 5 minutes in a proper job like teaching

 

[Andrew Hertford]

My vague recollection is that you're something of a Blairite (apologies if I've got that wrong).

Who would be your preferred leader, and what do you think their prospects might be at the next GE?

Christ, what ever made you think I was a Blairite!?? If I was ever an 'ite' then I was a Bennite, but I've known since the 80s that to get keep the tories out of government Labour needs to appeal across the political spectrum and JC just doesn't do that. He may be flavour of the month at the the moment, but unfortunately not enough British voters will vote for a Labour party led by a 71 year old committed to (among other things) dropping the nuclear 'deterrent'. That's the reality.

For the sick, the elderly, the poor and those of us who support free state funded public services, even a Blairite Labour government is always going to be better than a tory one.

Chuka Umunna would have stood the best chance of winning the next election for Labour but sadly that's no longer an option. None of the other candidates are exactly inspirational, but any one of them could be a potential PM.... although they may have to depend on other factors such the tories fucking up the economy or being in government at the start of another Global downturn, or of the electorate simply being sick of Cameron by then.

 

[killer b]

You asked "What does Corbyn's strong support among UKIP voters say to those who write them all off as racist idiots?".
It's fairly obvious that what it says is that UKIP support is a bit more complex than the "UKIP: Gateway drug to fascism" line that has been touted far and wide, but that some commentators still stick with that line.
So, my point is that your question reads like you can't see that such commentators could easily live with the dissonance between what actually is (UKIP supporters being somewhat more complex than "racist idiots), and what they want to see (UKIP supporters as simple racist fuckwits).

Ah, got you. I thought you were saying the ukips had the cognitive dissonance. Probably is a load going on there too, mind.

 

[maomao]

So not completely different to what I said.

Labour will need around 40% of the vote to win a majority in 2020, what do you think they'll get with JC as leader?

What would they get with any of the other three in charge who all score lower than Corbyn in the same survey? I'm not a massive Corbyn supporter, I think the end result is bound to be a disappointment but the vast majority of the labour party has to realise that the reason they're not going to get voted in is because they're not standing for anything but themselves. At least the Tories still represent a class, even if it is the class that wants to destroy us all. Which is why people like Cooper end up spouting nonsensical self contradictory identity politics. They don't actually have a political position on anything except being elected and that will never get them elected.

 

[DotCommunist]

Chuka Umunna would have stood the best chance of winning the next election for Labour

its not a competition on youth or good looks. Do you think the electorate are fucking idiots?

 

[scifisam]

What a twat. The clip showed on the news the other day was almost as bad.

"What is more radical? Is it a Labour Party ... to be led again by a leader and a deputy leader who are both white men? Or is it to smash our own glass ceiling, and to get Labour's first elected woman leader, and first woman Prime Minister as well, who is really the radical?! Jeremy or me?!"



We've had a woman Prime Minister Yvette. Remember?

She said Labour Prime Minister, though it's easy to misread.

I know someone likely to vote for Cooper because they think Labour could do with a female leader. That's not enough reason for me, and also a terrible female leader would be worse for women than not having one at all, because people tend to criticise all women when one of their gender fucks up.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

its not a competition on youth or good looks. Do you think the electorate are fucking idiots?

No I'll leave that think to you.

Unfortunately Corbyn's age will be an issue for many voters and you'd be deluding yourself to think otherwise.

 

[DotCommunist]

and its heated up 'women in the boardroom'co-opted feminism scifisam

 

[DotCommunist]

No I'll leave that think to you.

Unfortunately Corbyn's age will be an issue for many voters and you'd be deluding yourself to think otherwise.

so thats a yes

 

[J Ed]

and its heated up 'women in the boardroom'co-opted feminism scifisam

Yes, and very few are falling for it which is nice.

 

[J Ed]

 

[andysays]

..."What is more radical? Is it a Labour Party ... to be led again by a leader and a deputy leader who are both white men?..."

Harriet Harman and Margaret Beckett may be scratching their balls heads at that one

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Ahaha that's a fucking brilliant cartoon, even just for the look on Blair's dead face

 

[andysays]

Christ, what ever made you think I was a Blairite!?? ...

...Chuka Umunna would have stood the best chance of winning the next election for Labour...

Looks like you just answered your own question there...

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Looks like you just answered your own question there...

Looks like you didn't get what I said there...

 

[redcogs]

Too old, too nice, too left, too bearded, too CND, too round toed, too soft, too male, too Islington, too dedicated to despots etc etc etc..

All criticisms from people within his own organisation!

Yet the enormous membership figures insists none of the above matter too much.

Imagine the woeful politics of anybody who seeks to present extraordinary growth in membership and support as problematic and negative. Fools and charlatans who are contemptuous of democracy.

 

[killer b]

What's the difference between a 'pragmatic' bennite and a blairite? Like, practically, not what's in your immortal souls?

 

[andysays]

Looks like you didn't get what I said there...

There are a number of possible definitions of "Blairite" but one of his most significant approachs was the idea that the LP had to move right and ape the Tories to win power.

Of the four actual candidates, Corbyn is the furthest from that position, so clearly he gets the thumbs down from you, but apparently none of the others are Tory-like enough for you either, you would prefer Chuka Umunna, arch Blairite, in other words you think that the LP should continue Blair's legacy of aping the Tories. That, whether you like it or not, is the logic of what you're arguing, so it looks like my memory was correct

 

[J Ed]

What's the difference between a 'pragmatic' bennite and a blairite? Like, practically, not what's in your immortal souls?

Even neoliberalism's personification Hillary Clinton knows how to play the same 'I would really love to implement full communism but it's about being practical and getting through what we can right now' schtick

 

[kabbes]

To put the same argument a different way: Corbyn may or may not win an election. It's an unknown at this point. But we can be damn near certain that the other three won't. They represent a bland power-for-its-own-sake Tory-liteness that the electorate have now rejected twice. The polling backs this up -- Corbyn's popularity may or may not be enough to swing voters behind him... But either way he's still more popular than the others.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

There are a number of possible definitions of "Blairite" but one of his most significant approachs was the idea that the LP had to move right and ape the Tories to win power.

Of the four actual candidates, Corbyn is the furthest from that position, so clearly he gets the thumbs down from you, but apparently none of the others are Tory-like enough for you either, you would prefer Chuka Umunna, arch Blairite, in other words you think that the LP should continue Blair's legacy of aping the Tories. That, whether you like it or not, is the logic of what you're arguing, so it looks like my memory was correct

You've completely twisted my point. My politics are similar to JC's, but what matters most is getting the tories out of power and only Labour can do that and they can only do it by appealing to the wider electorate.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

What would they get with any of the other three in charge who all score lower than Corbyn in the same survey? I'm not a massive Corbyn supporter, I think the end result is bound to be a disappointment but the vast majority of the labour party has to realise that the reason they're not going to get voted in is because they're not standing for anything but themselves. At least the Tories still represent a class, even if it is the class that wants to destroy us all. Which is why people like Cooper end up spouting nonsensical self contradictory identity politics. They don't actually have a political position on anything except being elected and that will never get them elected.

What makes you think that most of the Labour Party stand for what JC stands for, or more importantly that enough voters share what he stands for and put Labour into government?

 

[J Ed]

You've completely twisted my point. My politics are similar to JC's, but what matters most is getting the tories out of power and only Labour can do that and they can only do it by appealing to the wider electorate.

Why would anyone vote for Chukka when they could vote for Osborne? If you're trying to sell a manifesto to the right of the 2010 Labour election manifesto as the Labour Party then you have no unique selling point, and short of a major scandal, no chance of being elected. I am sure I am not the only one who has spoken to several people who said that they voted for the Tories because 'they are all corrupt bastards but at least the Tories are competent'.

 

[Favelado]

You've completely twisted my point. My politics are similar to JC's, but what matters most is getting the tories out of power and only Labour can do that and they can only do it by appealing to the wider electorate.

Getting the Tories out isn't the most important thing. Let's break that myth right now. We did that in 1997 and it's just led to Britain becoming a very similar kind of place than it would have done under the Tories anyway. Labour privatised things, didn't invest in housing, started the process of private money being key in the NHS, and promoted greed and selfishness.

It's much more important to start to build an opposition that doesn't get us to the same place as the Tories slightly more slowly.
It's much more important to build an alternative that may bring real change. It's time for politics to have some meaning. The strings of empty sentences from career politicians who only half mean them need to go. Let's have conviction politics that motivates and emotionally connects with people.

Labour has ceased to be a socialist party. It's ceased to be a socially democratic party. It's time to do its job or get out of the way.

 

[J Ed]

I also very much doubt that many people would want to vote for someone who casually refers to them as trash