Labour & Anti-Semitism.
- Thread starter cantsin
- Start date
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Like hitler. I will never forgive that man.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
It’s a big problem. That they have others, Brexit and an unpopular leader for starters, just adds to the concern that it won’t get a chance to adopt the policies is has that will help people at least a little.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
They did in 2015, but it had been clear for a long time the win was in jeopardy.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
tbh this 'unpopular leader' bit is getting really rather dull
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so you think that because it's all over the media it is having an effect. in what way does this effect differ from all the other stories about corbyn and his fitness for political office which have been er all over the media for the past four years?
does it come up in conversation much with the people you meet in your everyday life?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Is that to do with the specific content of the attacks, the grounds that they are taking place on - anti-semitism. Or is it just the relentless attacks? if the latter then this is always going to happen, there is no way around it. So to blame the people being attacked seems a bit daft. How can you try to move the labour party leftward without this happening? You can't.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
You are adopting an odd position on this. It seems that we have agreement that Corbo’s followers include an unfortunate number of flakes who are quick to pick up on silly conspiracies and utilise antisemitism if JC is criticised. JC himself appears unable to fully grasp the scale of the problem and at the same point his overall approval ratings and the LP’s poll ratings are running low and yet no one should hazard a guess about how this may affect Labour’s chances?
4 and 6 points ahead in the latest two polls.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
perhaps you should reread my post to see what i'm actually saying
Eh, I mean the cranks,not the party
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
do you really think any corbyn supporter is really going to say to anyone 'your north london cabal is finished' or similar? do you actually know where the constituencies represented by diane abbott and jeremy corbyn are?
Smangus
comatose at a desk
I think so, their ridiculous reaction to the Panarama documentary reeks of institutionalised racism imo. Whataboutary, addressing the motives of the accusers and broadcaster not the issues/accusations all points to this.
Antisemitism is having an impact.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
On the electorate? All them things you mention are effects on the membership, the corbyn supporting membership.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
As has been noted, Ed was well ahead and had a considerably higher poll share. These leads don’t point to progress, simply that it’s all a bit febrile.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He wasn't ahead in this situation. If you're doing real like polls do you want to put his actually existing electoral record up against corbyn's?
I don't think they do point to progress, no. But nor are they 'running low'.
Smangus
comatose at a desk
I think so, I'm the electorate - not a member of the party. I won't vote for them now as they are to me a racist party - same as the Tories, Brexit Party , UKIP etc.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Before I get shot down for any suggestion that anti semitism isnt important I'd suggest that their Brexit position will cost them more votes amongst the working class .
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
There possibly is something about the specific content of the attacks that makes them particularly effective and one might say inflammatory when used against Labour's members and supporters, insofar as they are basically accusations of racism, made against a group that proudly identifies as anti-racist.
I can't imagine the Tories for example, giving much of a shit about being called racists.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What price a victory if it involves defending chris williamson?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well if, as you suggest, labour puts an especial value on being anti-racist it could probably have done a bit better on this. And a bit sooner. Lots of people saw this happening as soon as corbyn won the election. It's not like they weren't warned.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
'Ed' actually set this up btw with his opening up of the leadership votes and membership rules.
Smangus
comatose at a desk
Time they took a long hard look at themselves then. Until thye recognise it they can't deal with it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Absolutely - and them chickens are very close to er being cooked.
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Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
He did and it only goes to show that the last thing you want in a political party are people enthusiastic to be there.
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
Suspect that the biggest impact of the anti-semitism row is on thoroughly demoralising Labour Party members like me who back the policy direction of Corbynism, are despairing at the cranks in the party and utterly maddened by the inability of the leadership to actually do any leading. I've gradually gone from supporting Corbyn, to thinking he's not ideal but it's about the policies not the man, to worrying that he's now outstaying his welcome and he personally is starting to be a threat to the survival of the policy programme.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Sure. No doubt at all they made a complete hash of dealing with the genuine antisemitism present in their ranks, but now their chances of addressing it are severely hampered by a sort of siege mentality that almost inevitably arises from being dog-piled by all and sundry on the issue.
Clearly many on Labour's left perceive that there is sponsorship or exploitation of the actual attacks along these lines by different groups who are hostile to left politics; whether in support of the Israeli government, or from power struggles with the Labour right, or just from capital doing what it does e.g. via the corporate media.
The lack of any real analytical framework for attribution of such exploitation / sponsorship though, appears to cause any attempt to discuss that wider context to tend to devolve quickly into a binary choice between e.g. "Mossad disinformation op" vs "Antisemitic conspiraloonery"
Hence the stuff from the professional cybersecurity world I was posting a page or two back, where I think there might be some of the tools for a pragmatic analysis of the apparent exploitation and/or sponsorship of this attack line by various groups.
I think that being able to have a sensible conversation about that stuff (or at least not having to pretend that it isn't happening for fear of being called an "antisemitic conspiraloon") is likely to be a critical success factor for dealing with actual anti-semitism.
If they leave a gap there, it will almost certainly get filled by exactly the sort of gibberish that would exacerbate the problem.
Clearly many on Labour's left perceive that there is sponsorship or exploitation of the actual attacks along these lines by different groups who are hostile to left politics; whether in support of the Israeli government, or from power struggles with the Labour right, or just from capital doing what it does e.g. via the corporate media.
The lack of any real analytical framework for attribution of such exploitation / sponsorship though, appears to cause any attempt to discuss that wider context to tend to devolve quickly into a binary choice between e.g. "Mossad disinformation op" vs "Antisemitic conspiraloonery"
Hence the stuff from the professional cybersecurity world I was posting a page or two back, where I think there might be some of the tools for a pragmatic analysis of the apparent exploitation and/or sponsorship of this attack line by various groups.
I think that being able to have a sensible conversation about that stuff (or at least not having to pretend that it isn't happening for fear of being called an "antisemitic conspiraloon") is likely to be a critical success factor for dealing with actual anti-semitism.
If they leave a gap there, it will almost certainly get filled by exactly the sort of gibberish that would exacerbate the problem.
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