Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[Serge Forward]

You could say much the same for Chris Williamson, voting with Cameron government for intervention in Libya. Trust no one

 

[killer b]

Because I'm having trouble understanding the truth of all this.

Instead of asking stupid loaded questions, perhaps you could help me. This issue is a complete clusterfuck

it's partly a clusterfuck because of clowns like you performing their 'difficulty' understanding something that's been explained thousands of times to them.

I understand all this stuff gets people on the defensive. But ffs, you have to choose to have difficulty understanding this stuff. Choose to understand it instead.

 

[Pickman's model]

Because I'm having trouble understanding the truth of all this.

Instead of asking stupid loaded questions, perhaps you could help me. This issue is a complete clusterfuck

He can explain it to you but he cannot understand it for you

 

[butchersapron]

Bob from Brockley - a former cheerleader for the Afghan and Iraq wars doesn’t like anti-imperialism? There’s a surprise.

He cheerled the afghan and iraq wars did he?

And 'anti-imperialism' as a trouble free clearly defined concept to be supported with no further investigation? Untroubled by the current red-brown understanding of it involving lining up and politically supporting dictators, far-right goons, anti-semites, holocaust deniers etc? The only one that's actually doing any work right now. What exactly about the single use of the term to describe the contents of another article written by someone else did you object to? I've never seen you stick up for the identity politics of this stalinist left before. In fact, i'm pretty sure i've seen you reject them.

 

[kebabking]

Because I'm having trouble understanding the truth of all this.

Instead of asking stupid loaded questions, perhaps you could help me. This issue is a complete clusterfuck

It's dead easy: Corbyn is a bit obsessed by Israel, and it's reach and influence, to the point of being of a bit of a conspiraloon on the issue (the Iranian TV interview being an excellent example), he then - for a committed anti-anti-Semite - ends up sharing platforms with an awful lot of anti-Semites and anti-Semitic conspiraloons, and calls an awful lot of them 'my friends'. He also fails to notice anti-Semitic tropes, which even someone as politically tone deaf as me can see in one glance, when they are produced by people who support his broad politics/world view.

So, he's either the world's unluckiest, least observant, least knowledgeable anti-anti-Semite, or he's just knowingly, and willfully blind to it when it fits into his world view.

I used to think it was the second, but I'm beginning to think it's an unpleasant mix of the two - I don't think he spends his down time dressed in an SS uniform and throwing darts at pictures of Albert Einstein, but I think he has, perhaps unthinkingly, bought into a crude Jews=Israel=International Finance=Media=Mossad conspiracy trope, and because thinks himself, understandably, a committed anti-racist, whatever he believes can't, by definition, be racist.

I don't think he's a bad, unpleasant man, I just think he's massively gullible to the point of believing absolutely anything that fits into, or sympathises with, his very simplistic world view.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The implication that Corbyn and his cronies are antisemitic is constantly made, though. It's commonly stated in articles that Corbyn has brought antisemites into the party and Labour isn't dealing with them because senior figures are intervening, and the subtext is that this is because Corbyn is antisemitic and/or people in his team are. Not "they are a bit shit", it's "they actively hate Jews". Otherwise it could just be a case of an inefficient party machine that deals badly with internal complaints, doesn't really understand the issues, is in denial, and errs on the side of supporting incumbents and not causing a fuss.

You don't have to look very far to see people understanding the underlying message and flat-out calling him an antisemite. I've heard it IRL too.

 

[not-bono-ever]

I dont think Corbyn has moved on from the '60s default position tbf

 

[Pickman's model]

It's dead easy: Corbyn is a bit obsessed by Israel, and it's reach and influence, to the point of being of a bit of a conspiraloon on the issue (the Iranian TV interview being an excellent example), he then - for a committed anti-anti-Semite - ends up sharing platforms with an awful lot of anti-Semites and anti-Semitic conspiraloons, and calls an awful lot of them 'my friends'. He also fails to notice anti-Semitic tropes, which even someone as politically tone deaf as me can see in one glance, when they are produced by people who support his broad politics/world view.

So, he's either the world's unluckiest, least observant, least knowledgeable anti-anti-Semite, or he's just knowingly, and willfully blind to it when it fits into his world view.

I used to think it was the second, but I'm beginning to think it's an unpleasant mix of the two - I don't think he spends his down time dressed in an SS uniform and throwing darts at pictures of Albert Einstein, but I think he has, perhaps unthinkingly, bought into a crude Jews=Israel=International Finance=Media=Mossad conspiracy trope, and because thinks himself, understandably, a committed anti-racist, whatever he believes can't, by definition, be racist.

I don't think he's a bad, unpleasant man, I just think he's massively gullible to the point of believing absolutely anything that fits into, or sympathises with, his very simplistic world view.

Anyone who wittingly or otherwise believes in conspiracies cannot by definition be said to have a simplistic world view due to the actual complexity of their world view

 

[Pickman's model]

I dont think Corbyn has moved on from the '60s default position tbf

Which was...

 

[not-bono-ever]

viewing through the lens of anti imperialism broadly

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Anyone who wittingly or otherwise believes in conspiracies cannot by definition be said to have a simplistic world view due to the actual complexity of their world view

Structurally complex maybe but isn't a big part of their whole appeal that they're ontologically simple?

 

[Pickman's model]

Structurally complex maybe but isn't a big part of their whole appeal that they're ontologically simple?

Or ostensibly simple.

 

[Rivendelboy]

He can explain it to you but he cannot understand it for you

That wasn't my request so there should be no problem

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Or ostensibly simple.

Sure, but the appeal is that they ignore the messy details of real systems to provide neat, emotionally satisfying explanations. Or something along those lines.

There's rarely room for feedback loops in the classical conspiraloon explanatory graphic for example, however structurally complex they are.

Whereas there are a whole bunch of them in notions of formation and reproduction that a marxist analysis might use for example, that might usefully come into a discussion of political influence, ideological dominance or whatever.

 

[Rivendelboy]

It's dead easy: Corbyn is a bit obsessed by Israel, and it's reach and influence, to the point of being of a bit of a conspiraloon on the issue (the Iranian TV interview being an excellent example), he then - for a committed anti-anti-Semite - ends up sharing platforms with an awful lot of anti-Semites and anti-Semitic conspiraloons, and calls an awful lot of them 'my friends'. He also fails to notice anti-Semitic tropes, which even someone as politically tone deaf as me can see in one glance, when they are produced by people who support his broad politics/world view.

So, he's either the world's unluckiest, least observant, least knowledgeable anti-anti-Semite, or he's just knowingly, and willfully blind to it when it fits into his world view.

I used to think it was the second, but I'm beginning to think it's an unpleasant mix of the two - I don't think he spends his down time dressed in an SS uniform and throwing darts at pictures of Albert Einstein, but I think he has, perhaps unthinkingly, bought into a crude Jews=Israel=International Finance=Media=Mossad conspiracy trope, and because thinks himself, understandably, a committed anti-racist, whatever he believes can't, by definition, be racist.

I don't think he's a bad, unpleasant man, I just think he's massively gullible to the point of believing absolutely anything that fits into, or sympathises with, his very simplistic world view.

That's actually a pretty good overview, thanks. It makes sense, I just don't know how I feel about it

 

[SpineyNorman]

It's dead easy: Corbyn is a bit obsessed by Israel, and it's reach and influence, to the point of being of a bit of a conspiraloon on the issue (the Iranian TV interview being an excellent example), he then - for a committed anti-anti-Semite - ends up sharing platforms with an awful lot of anti-Semites and anti-Semitic conspiraloons, and calls an awful lot of them 'my friends'. He also fails to notice anti-Semitic tropes, which even someone as politically tone deaf as me can see in one glance, when they are produced by people who support his broad politics/world view.

So, he's either the world's unluckiest, least observant, least knowledgeable anti-anti-Semite, or he's just knowingly, and willfully blind to it when it fits into his world view.

I used to think it was the second, but I'm beginning to think it's an unpleasant mix of the two - I don't think he spends his down time dressed in an SS uniform and throwing darts at pictures of Albert Einstein, but I think he has, perhaps unthinkingly, bought into a crude Jews=Israel=International Finance=Media=Mossad conspiracy trope, and because thinks himself, understandably, a committed anti-racist, whatever he believes can't, by definition, be racist.

I don't think he's a bad, unpleasant man, I just think he's massively gullible to the point of believing absolutely anything that fits into, or sympathises with, his very simplistic world view.

Broadly agree but I'd be a bit more charitable towards him in that I don't think he's personally antisemitic. It's more that he's aware that (or believes) his coalition of support within the party has within it a lot of these kinds of cranks, doesn't really recognise just how dangerous they are and doesn't want to boot them out/upset them too much because he depends on them for support. Along with the fact that in the early days of his leadership he showed a terrifying inability to recognise antisemitic propaganda and it paints a pretty bad picture and the objective result of this isn't that much different than it would be if he was an antisemite.

Neither of us can really know and he doesn't exactly look good either way.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

That's actually a pretty good overview, thanks. It makes sense, I just don't know how I feel about it

How can you not know how you feel about it??

 

[Rivendelboy]

How can you not know how you feel about it??

Because I'm not sure how I feel about Corbyn. On one hand I think, very simply, he's the only answer to the Tories. It's not what I would hope for, but it's what we got. On the other clearly there are cranks and fringe loons that seem to cluster around his leadership that, despite the bad faith element amongst those decrying it, see to be a persistent thorn.

I don't want to throw Jewish labour voters and supporters under the bus at all. But at the same time I don't agree with the way some cases have been handled: specifically Jackie Walker. I thinks she has been scapegoated. Meanwhile Chris Williamson has been allowed in and out in a manner akin to the hpkey cokey, which only further arms the right wing

So yes, I'm torn. Sorry if that isn't a simple enough answer.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

It’s perfectly possible to feel that Corbyn/labour are a rare opportunity to dial back to some extent advanced double liberalism and also to be nauseated by their reductive, stupid and ultimately crass ‘anti-imperialism’.

 

[Rivendelboy]

It’s perfectly possible to feel that Corbyn/labour are a rare opportunity to dial back to some extent advanced double liberalism and also to be nauseated by their reductive, stupid and ultimately crass ‘anti-imperialism’.

That's what I'm saying

 

[Cloo]

I think kebabking puts it very well.

One might well be able to say Corbyn is an anti-semite, but he's not a Jew-hater (which I see as two different things). The Nazis were not mere anti-semites, they are outright Jew haters. People who think it's clever to mutter about Rothschilds and Zionist conspiracies but say they have nothing against Jews are anti-semites, but not Jew haters.

Corbyn's Labour, to my mind, poses zero existential threat to Jews (and it pisses me off when my co-religionists act as if it does) but it doesn't understand its own anti-semitism and it doesn't really understand who Jews are.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I think
Corbyn's Labour, to my mind, poses zero existential threat to Jews (and it pisses me off when my co-religionists act as if it does) but it doesn't understand its own anti-semitism and it doesn't really understand who Jews are.

This is the most damning point of all. The apparent fact that despite the last 2 years or so nobody around him has sat down and suggested a rethink of their analysis and where it comes from and an engagement with thinkers from outside of the bubble. Instead there has been an ideological digging in.

The fact that the issue has become the proxy for the war between Blairites and Corbynistas is highly unpleasant all round, but the fact that the LOTO office has not undertaken a fundamental rethink and engagement strategy (which McDonnell once demanded must happen) is incompetence and worryingly complacent in its smug certainties.

 

[Mr Moose]

It’s perfectly possible to feel that Corbyn/labour are a rare opportunity to dial back to some extent advanced double liberalism and also to be nauseated by their reductive, stupid and ultimately crass ‘anti-imperialism’.

But it’s increasingly impossible to think that the former is going to succeed given the latter.

Anti-semitism isn’t even the only way this manifests itself, for example in Corbyn’s idiotic approach to Russia. A woman, a citizen, dies because of the Russian state’s reckless murderous behaviour and Corbyn responds with sophistry.

We certainly need a leader who can instinctively resist the stupid interventionist adventures of the last few years, but this random world view is simply too flakey.

 

[killer b]

His world view isn't random is it? It's totally consistent and boringly predictable.

 

[Mr Moose]

His world view isn't random is it? It's totally consistent and boringly predictable.

Ok, maybe the wrong word. Consistently inconsistent perhaps. Humanitarian, but less so if the Russian State may have been involved.

 

[butchersapron]

I wonder, in the world view of the type of people we are talking about if it's possible to be jewish or opposed to anti-semitism and not be an active labour party member in support of Corbyn. I don't see much understanding of how this is actually a real life thing.

 

[treelover]

Tracey Ann Obermann was on Victoria Derbyshire, its a hard watch, some of the things she says that (alledgely) Corbyn supporters have said to her are worthy of any Moselyite, 'dirty jew' 'your North London cabal's time is over'

Labour could have been on the brink of power, helping the millions, many whose life is hell, can't forgive them, out they go.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tracey Ann Obermann was on Victoria Derbyshire, its a hard watch, some of the things she says that (alledgely) Corbyn supporters have said to her are worthy of any Moselyite, 'dirty jew' 'your North London cabal's time is over'

tbh it'd be very odd to hear any corbyn supporter say to anyone 'your north london cabal's time's over'

Labour could have been on the brink of power, helping the millions, many whose life is hell, can't forgive them, out they go.

so - are you turning to the lib dems now?

 

[killer b]

Do you really think the only thing standing between Labour and the brink of power is their failure to deal with antisemitism among their membership & supporters?

 

[butchersapron]

Tracey Ann Obermann was on Victoria Derbyshire, its a hard watch, some of the things she says that (alledgely) Corbyn supporters have said to her are worthy of any Moselyite, 'dirty jew' 'your North London cabal's time is over'

Labour could have been on the brink of power, helping the millions, many whose life is hell, can't forgive them, out they go.

You think the specific content of the anti-semitism claims rather than the wider narrative of civil war and internal disorganisation is harming them electorally?