Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Perfect cover
Labour & Anti-Semitism.
- Thread starter cantsin
- Start date
Perfect cover
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
They’re everywhere. They control everything. Alan Sugar’s one, you know. And Gweneth Paltrow.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Right, so someone who was complained of and removed. Proof that the Labour Party ignores anti-semitism then
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Right, so someone who was complained of and removed. Proof that the Labour Party ignores anti-semitism then
Why do you think they were removed
‘Was a labour member’ as in it was a labour member flinging out racist abuse
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I am guessing, from your opaque posts, that they were removed for anti-semitism. Which would rather imply the system was working.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
They haven’t been.
Not sure what’s opaque about my posts, but you’re always welcome to ask for clarity (rather than going on about ‘smears’ and ‘self hating Jews’)
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
So what were they removed for? Oh, I see you've edited above. So they ARE an LP member??? I can't even tell now, your posts seem contradictory.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
I didn’t claim they were removed, that was your fantasy.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Oh for fucks sake get a hobby or something.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
or you could just write more clearly.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
this is belboid's hobby
Combustible
Well-Known Member
There's lot's of reasons why the Palestinian cause may get disproportionate attention from the left which are not due to antisemitism. Some of those might be good reasons, that Israel has been able to act the way it has because of the active support of Western states, and therefore people in the West are more able to at least somewhat influence their governments to stop enabling the oppression of the Palestinians. Other reasons might be less valid, such as based on a crude anti-imperialism, or the fact that campaigning on issues such as Palestine have become part of 'a lefty culture', and is simply something people are expected to do if they are in left-wing groups regardless of whether it makes a difference to anything. I am not saying of course that there are not people motivated by hatred by Jews, or that the overwhelming attention on Israel hasn't helped foster antisemitism and conspiracy theories.
It was also probably true that apartheid South Africa received disproportionate attention from left-wing groups, but I don't think many people besides apartheid's defenders would have accepted the argument that this must be due to racism against white South Africans.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
apartheid south africa received a great deal of coverage from such left-wing organs as the bbc
likesfish
You can't park here sir
oh for ffs when Israel actually gives cash to a load of MPs its not actually a conspiracy theory to go hang on a moment?
Labour MP Siobhain Mcdonagh: “to be anti-capitalism is to be anti-semitic”
think Israel gets panned because they are seen and try to portray themselves as part of the West rather than strange barbarous others
egypt tortures murders people or the congo well what can you expect?
israel has gay pride and women in bikinis on the beach so you cant be the bad guys
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
You get cheques from both sides too apparently. Don't seem to have got any myself I have to say.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
You would say that
Combustible
Well-Known Member
I was referring to the disproportionate amount of effort spent by left wing groups campaigning against apartheid, as opposed to other issues. But I agree that the BBC and other western media gave the issue a lot of coverage, they also give much more coverage to Israel/Palestine than they do to war in the DR Congo. Presumably most people wouldn't say the reason for this must be antisemitism or anti-Arab racism.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you do know the zionist entity and apartheid south africa were allies, right?
Brothers in arms - Israel's secret pact with Pretoria
so it's hardly surprising if groups campaigning against apartheid had something to say about the zionist entity.
you must have known this, it's no secret, it's been widely known for many, many years
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I can’t follow what you’re saying here, to be honest. What I was picking up on was first your saying “the Israeli lobby is huge” in the context of a discussion about “the myopic obsession with Israel” (kebabking). This seemed to be an example of just what was being talked about.oh for ffs when Israel actually gives cash to a load of MPs its not actually a conspiracy theory to go hang on a moment?
Labour MP Siobhain Mcdonagh: “to be anti-capitalism is to be anti-semitic”
think Israel gets panned because they are seen and try to portray themselves as part of the West rather than strange barbarous others
egypt tortures murders people or the congo well what can you expect?
israel has gay pride and women in bikinis on the beach so you cant be the bad guys
You responded by saying “there’s a bit of truth to it”. (Straight after an ironic post from someone joking about doing what their “controllers tell” them). Offering links to wiki pages on LFI and CFI.
I’m not sure exactly what points you think you’re making (partly because I find it hard to read your posts), but what you’re saying skates very close to the idea that Jews (albeit using the term “the Isreali lobby”) are uniquely seeking undue political power in the UK and internationally, perhaps undermining British democratic and cultural mores. The focus on “a load of cash” seems very like the tropes that see Jews-as-a-group as controlling finances and using it in the interests of “their kind”, in an underhanded way, and with outcomes that are harmful.
These types of tropes, even when used without realising it, reinforce and perpetuate antisemitism.
There are ways of criticising the actions and policies of the Israeli state without falling into these traps.
Combustible
Well-Known Member
I did know yes, but I don't see how that contradicts anything in what I posted.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no, i don't suppose you would
happie chappie
Well-Known Member
The issue isn’t about people “interested” in Palestine (I’m not sure where the 99% figure came from by the way) but the near obsession with Israel with some on the left to the seeming exclusion of anything and everything else.
As for Israel being the “the single most important factor in the destabilisation of the middle east” it’s now being given a good run for its money by Iran what with it supporting or fighting proxy wars in Yemen, Syria and Lebanon (as well as meddling in Iraq) and provoking Saudi Arabia along the way. Hardly a force for good in the region.
It’s a wonder they have enough time to develop a nuclear weapon, oppress women, publicly execute people, persecute religious minorities, and criminalise gay people but somehow they manage it.
But the silence on the left about Iran is deafening by its absence - certainly compared to the (often entirely justified) criticism of Israel.
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Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Aye, there's the rub. And that absence makes the "anti zionism not anti semitism" claim of many just a tad suspect.
Cloo
Banana for scale
For those interested in how Jews feel about this, here's a piece that comes the closest to describing how I feel (and had not heretofore been able to describe well): European Jews Don't Need to Be Defined by Anti-Semitism - The Atlantic
That there is increased AS, it is bad, but it's not Nazi-style existential-threat AS. It is, as the author says, almost more analogous to 19th century AS where your word or your allegiance to thingsis doubted because you're a Jew. I feel my co-religionists do everyone a disservice (I'm looking at you, Jewish Chronicle) when they spout the line 'This is like Nazi Germany' or 'I don't feel safe in Britain anymore because of Jeremy Corbyn', but there's no doubt something is rotten. I feel an increasing sense, for example, in discussions of Israel or indeed of Labour, that as a Jew I am expected to 'declare' myself as the right kind of Jew before we can talk about AS. I have no especial interest in getting rid of Corbyn on the point of AS - more on the issue of him being a lousy leader and agonisingly failing to score in an open goal against this useless government because it so happens he agrees with Brexit albeit for different reasons to them. I do have an interest in AS being weaponised by people who don't give a shit about Jews, and it's happening in the States too, where AS is being used to attack progressive causes, who often have the feature of being critical of Israel (and yes, may contain antisemites, but that doesn't render everything else they stand for valueless)
That there is increased AS, it is bad, but it's not Nazi-style existential-threat AS. It is, as the author says, almost more analogous to 19th century AS where your word or your allegiance to thingsis doubted because you're a Jew. I feel my co-religionists do everyone a disservice (I'm looking at you, Jewish Chronicle) when they spout the line 'This is like Nazi Germany' or 'I don't feel safe in Britain anymore because of Jeremy Corbyn', but there's no doubt something is rotten. I feel an increasing sense, for example, in discussions of Israel or indeed of Labour, that as a Jew I am expected to 'declare' myself as the right kind of Jew before we can talk about AS. I have no especial interest in getting rid of Corbyn on the point of AS - more on the issue of him being a lousy leader and agonisingly failing to score in an open goal against this useless government because it so happens he agrees with Brexit albeit for different reasons to them. I do have an interest in AS being weaponised by people who don't give a shit about Jews, and it's happening in the States too, where AS is being used to attack progressive causes, who often have the feature of being critical of Israel (and yes, may contain antisemites, but that doesn't render everything else they stand for valueless)
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
That, for me, is the swinger: there are upwards of a million people in Chinese 're-education' camps in Xingjiang province alone, while the rest of the population in that benighted province are required to own smartphones with an embedded app that notes every single search, text, message and call they make and transmits than information to the Chinese government.
The cynical might wonder whether the would-be saviours of the oppressed could hold forth for hours on Xingjiang in the way they do on Palestine, or if they get quite so excited about Chinese consumer electronics in their homes as they do about Israeli Oranges in Tesco.
The cynical might further wonder if the true driver of obsessive support for Palestinians is rather more about the identity of the oppressor than it is about the condition of the oppressed....
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I must admit, I have met almost no one who is actually obsessed by Palestine to the exclusion of all else. I see a few more now, what with the internet n all, but hardly any irl. Is it given more prominence than other, possibly worse, appaling regimes? Yes, for all the reasons stated above - notably its meant to be 'one of us' - that is the key difference.
It is true that Iran (which Israel strongly, if discreetly, supported during the Iran-Iraq war) and Saudi have been getting more and more important over the last twenty years, as they have built themselves up into regional powers - a process greatly helped of course by the invasion of Iraq in 2003 which also completely destabilised the region. The UK government doesn't sell arms to Iran though, and campaigns against sales to Saudi have become prominent too.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Hold on a second. We don't have to get into whataboutery here. The situation in Palestine is fucking terrible and has been going on for decades so is going to have built up a lot of personal history and support - and quite apart from the "Jewish lobby" bullshit it _is_ geopolitically significant outside of that.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Re Jewish apologists for antisemitism
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...evealed-she-talked-about-jew-process-1.480981
Bird was one of the signatories of the ‘Jews love Jezza’ letter
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...evealed-she-talked-about-jew-process-1.480981
Bird was one of the signatories of the ‘Jews love Jezza’ letter
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