Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[danny la rouge]

I'll save you the job - the answer is 'NO'.

For the ten millionth time......just because you don't like the politics of the messenger and just because you think the messenger has other motives for making the point they make it does not follow that their point is wrong.

It’s important to separate what’s been said from any agenda we might impute about why they’ve said it. If “the left” seems to continue to deny the truth of that critique as outlined in the tweets I c&ped, then the damage can continue to be done. The punches can continue to land.

Far better for the antisemitism on the left to be tackled by the left. As I alluded to earlier, the saying usually attributed to Bebel, “Anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools”, still holds true. If we can’t make that clear without causing confusion on both “sides”, then we may as well give up.

 

[Serge Forward]

Labour MP is pro capitalist shocker!!! For the record, Labour has always been a party of capitalism. The left labour are every bit as pro capitalist - though admittedly they do prefer a fluffier version. As for the MP's "yes" response in the interview... for fuck sake, when does a politician ever say "yes" in an interview!?!? She's doing it wrong!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Clause 4 wasn't pro-capitalist, so Labour hasn't always just been a party of capitalism.

Agree about the interview, though. Outwitted by John Humphrys. For shame.

 

[two sheds]

Labour MP is pro capitalist shocker!!! For the record, Labour has always been a party of capitalism. The left labour are every bit as pro capitalist - though admittedly they do prefer a fluffier version. As for the MP's "yes" response in the interview... for fuck sake, when does a politician ever say "yes" in an interview!?!? She's doing it wrong!

Aiming for something that is achievable within the capitalist world we're saddled with is different from being pro-capitalist.

 

[belboid]

" It is a trope that is sown through the politics of those now running the Labour Party."

That isn't just talking about those who hold to conspiraloon Rothschild theories, it's talking about everyone on the 'hard' left, everyone from McDonnell leftwards - they, we, are all implicated, which is why she answered 'yes' to Humphrys.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

It’s important to separate what’s been said from any agenda we might impute about why they’ve said it. If “the left” seems to continue to deny the truth of that critique as outlined in the tweets I c&ped, then the damage can continue to be done. The punches can continue to land.

Far better for the antisemitism on the left to be tackled by the left. As I alluded to earlier, the saying usually attributed to Bebel, “Anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools”, still holds true. If we can’t make that clear without causing confusion on both “sides”, then we may as well give up.

This would require a significant shift in mindset and away from the current binary politics on this that I simply do not detect any signs of. At base the gushing 'whataboutery' is an expression of solidarity with those who posses the socialism of fools.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Aiming for something that is achievable within the capitalist world we're saddled with is different from being pro-capitalist.

Yes. It's social democracy which is what the Labour Party has historically espoused.

 

[mojo pixy]

It’s important to separate what’s been said from any agenda we might impute about why they’ve said it. If “the left” seems to continue to deny the truth of that critique as outlined in the tweets I c&ped, then the damage can continue to be done. The punches can continue to land.

Far better for the antisemitism on the left to be tackled by the left. As I alluded to earlier, the saying usually attributed to Bebel, “Anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools”, still holds true. If we can’t make that clear without causing confusion on both “sides”, then we may as well give up.

Also that Israel is one of a number of truly shitty states doing truly shitty things that we (ie. the UK) enable by selling weapons and providing logistical support and intelligence etc .. and our focus could be (maybe) more usefully placed on the British companies and organisations who supply said resources. Rather than on another foreign state doing things we, here cannot change .. unless we then give all such states equal condemnation, explicitly.

Ugh, I may regret this but anyway.

I've been to arms-fairs actions at ExCel, and they felt a lot more useful and important than waving Palestine flags on Whitehall. Achieved fuck all but felt useful? Were meaningful? Who knows. Anyway The problem IMO is the middle-class Protest Industry who don't want real action because it would spoil their good name. They prefer virtue signalling on Whitehall, and they call people doing anything more Black Block Troublemakers.

One of the things that drove me away from protests was the response I got from questioning motives - specifically the constant, noisy centering of Israeli actions over and above any other misbehaving nation state's actions. I've been called every fucking name, even by people I thought were cool. And quite a few of these people are now (weren't then but are now) hooked onto Corbyn's Labour as a solution. But as far as I know they haven't stopped using terms like Zionist scum and Hasbara shills, both terms which disguise other, disgusting slurs they really mean.

 

[danny la rouge]

At base the gushing 'whataboutery' is an expression of solidarity with those who posses the socialism of fools.

I think that’s right. It’s what I’ve called in the past “the non-condemnation impulse”. And it is a big problem.

 

[danny la rouge]

" It is a trope that is sown through the politics of those now running the Labour Party."

That isn't just talking about those who hold to conspiraloon Rothschild theories, it's talking about everyone on the 'hard' left, everyone from McDonnell leftwards - they, we, are all implicated, which is why she answered 'yes' to Humphrys.

She may indeed be trying to smear the left, but that doesn’t mean the trope doesn’t run through the left. Because it does. I’ve seen it. I’d be surprised if you haven’t too.

If it didn’t, the smear wouldn’t work.

 

[Pickman's model]

Aiming for something that is achievable within the capitalist world we're saddled with is different from being pro-capitalist.

except that if you do a circuit of the city and go and meet other businesses to say how you're really very friendly to business the message does get somewhat confused.

 

[Serge Forward]

Aiming for something that is achievable within the capitalist world we're saddled with is different from being pro-capitalist.

Okay, pro fluffy capitalism then. Bigger cages, longer chains...

 

[belboid]

She may indeed be trying to smear the left, but that doesn’t mean the trope doesn’t run through the left. Because it does. I’ve seen it. I’d be surprised if you haven’t too.

If it didn’t, the smear wouldn’t work.

I have indeed seen a few people on the left who hold to such views. But I've seen more people on the left who support QPR. No one would say supporting QPR runs through the left, because that would be patently silly. There are several more people who don't recognise those tropes, for sure, but that is also quite different to actually holding to those beliefs.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Okay, pro fluffy capitalism then. Bigger cages, longer chains...

"To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service."

Is that pro-fluffy capitalism? I agree that that is what Labour has become, but it was not always thus.

 

[butchersapron]

Clause 4 was put in place by the right of the party - by the fabians ffs - to put a lid on anti-capitalism. It was never anything but rhetoric designed to stop the party splitting. People used to know this before Corbyn. Basic labour history.

 

[Serge Forward]

Well, if by "common ownership" you mean nationalised industries with former owners on the boards of said nationalised industries, then it wasn't even that fluffy. For the Labour left, their vision of socialism has never gone beyond nationalisation - i.e. state capitalism for the big industries with private capitalism round the peripheries. I don't really see that as socialism in any meaningful way.

 

[two sheds]

except that if you do a circuit of the city and go and meet other businesses to say how you're really very friendly to business the message does get somewhat confused.

Indeed. The price of needing to get elected, but then the snouts go in the troughs and the four legs and two legs start looking the same.

 

[two sheds]

Okay, pro fluffy capitalism then. Bigger cages, longer chains...

As opposed to the barbed wire capitalism. Smaller cages, shorter chains of the tories. Unless you have a good solid timetabled plan of getting the tories out without voting them out ...

 

[TopCat]

I know the limitations to what Labour offer. I will still vote for them.

 

[danny la rouge]

I have indeed seen a few people on the left who hold to such views. But I've seen more people on the left who support QPR. No one would say supporting QPR runs through the left, because that would be patently silly. There are several more people who don't recognise those tropes, for sure, but that is also quite different to actually holding to those beliefs.

I understand what you’re saying and why, but I think you’re erring on the side of dangerously underplaying. It reads, in the context we have, very like wilful blind eye turning. Antisemitism isn’t inherent in anti-capitalism, but there is a milieu where it’s a real problem.

I used to be a local contact person for the Stop the War stuff. But I had to leave because of a wave of reactionary views (anti semitism, sexism, homophobia) not just being excused, but criticism thereof being denounced as imperialist, culturally ethnocentric, and racist. And (although I personally haven’t directly been in Labour Party circles since the early 80s), I’d be amazed if that RESPECT-type of attitude - personified by Galloway - hadn’t flooded into Labour with the entryists during the Corbyn membership surge.

I don’t think it does us on the left generally any favours to pretend otherwise.

 

[danny la rouge]

I know the limitations to what Labour offer. I will still vote for them.

While I disagree with your conclusions, I know a lot of decent people who agree with you. And I don’t want to distance myself from them.

 

[Serge Forward]

I wouldn't dream of telling anyone not to vote for Labour, or for anyone else they think might possibly offer up a bit of lesser evil, pain killers and palliatives. Ultimately though, the Labour Party is part of the problem and can never be a solution if you seek the destruction of capitalism.

 

[Pickman's model]

I wouldn't dream of telling anyone not to vote for Labour, or for anyone else they think might possibly offer up a bit of lesser evil, pain killers and palliatives. Ultimately though, the Labour Party is part of the problem and can never be a solution if you seek the destruction of capitalism.

seeing labour in local government destroying social housing doesn't fill me with confidence in what the party might do in national government.

 

[belboid]

I understand what you’re saying and why, but I think you’re erring on the side of dangerously underplaying. It reads, in the context we have, very like wilful blind eye turning. Antisemitism isn’t inherent in anti-capitalism, but there is a milieu where it’s a real problem.

I used to be a local contact person for the Stop the War stuff. But I had to leave because of a wave of reactionary views (anti semitism, sexism, homophobia) not just being excused, but criticism thereof being denounced as imperialist, culturally ethnocentric, and racist. And (although I personally haven’t directly been in Labour Party circles since the early 80s), I’d be amazed if that RESPECT-type of attitude - personified by Galloway - hadn’t flooded into Labour with the entryists during the Corbyn membership surge.

I don’t think it does us on the left generally any favours to pretend otherwise.

It is, obviously, all down to who you see and hear. Fortunately the STW groups I had any involvement in did explicitly refute such nonsense, spoke out against the idea that no jewish people had died in 9/11, and the idea that the US state was behind it. Some STW groups did go over (Frome being the most notable, the national campaign explicitly distanced themselves from them), but they seemed fairly unusual, ime. And I wholly agree that those, particularly around the risible Labour Party Marxists, or Labour Against the Witchhunt (which is the only place I've seen at all clear antisemitism) do no one any favours at all by denying that conspiralooneery is an issue at all, when they are (through their semi-nationwide existence) able to see better. For most LP members, I really doubt they see any of it at all, and, given that the criticisms come mostly from people who have always hated Corbyn and everything vaguely leftwing he's ever stood for, of course they/we will be cynical as fuck about their motivations and even their facts.

 

[Serge Forward]

seeing labour in local government destroying social housing doesn't fill me with confidence in what the party might do in national government.

Quite.

 

[TopCat]

seeing labour in local government destroying social housing doesn't fill me with confidence in what the party might do in national government.

Me neither

 

[Mr Moose]

The revolutionary left doubles down. Some of it no problem, some of it true, but it’s not likely to help Labour get out of a hole. Sure you don’t give up on people, but can Labour afford Beeley sympathisers who don’t know when to give it a rest?

Chris Williamson’s suspension must be opposed

 

[Shechemite]

This made me laugh - although perhaps I should take more seriously the dangers of running dogs in the AWL

Defend Corbyn against the AWL

 

[redsquirrel]

Agree with danny la rouge and Smokeandsteam on the anti-semitism stuff.

"To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service."

Oh come on. A meaningless platitude, what were the actions of the Labour Party, what is its history.

 

[rekil]

Sorry , meant on ‘ public stages / irl / festivals / etc ‘ - ie : looked at the Marx Memorial talk of hers, pure anti imperialist / anti west spiel , can’t imagine her parading her AS underbelly on a stage

I'm certainly not going to go through every one of her public appearances but she did it at that fiasco in Estonia where she banged on about Soros and the students roasted her. She is obsessed with Soros.



I've no idea what in particular attracted Chris Williamson to her brand of activism but surely if you knew nothing about her beforehand and were somehow unaware that she's an associate editor on a conspiraloon site run by holocaust denier Patrick Henningsen, content like this would've set off at least one arooga arooga type alarm noise.




It's a link to a loon site run by someone called Jonathan Azaziah aka 'Madd Cold', a very bad rapper. Sample lyrics.

From 'We Love You Mahmoud (Ahmadinejad)'

You’re the biggest reason 9/11 truth and “Holocaust” revisionism spread to the Earth’s four corners
And because they couldn’t stop the trend, they dispersed more mortars

From 'Dead The Dajjal'

Do I gotta spell it out? Fine, I’ll yell it out, Dajjalic conspiracy’s global and the upper echelon is Jewish
9/11 and World War Two are the main tools they utilize to silence discussion
So I am just gonna decry it in public, ‘cause I will not succumb to the wicked
How can I deny your “Holocaust” when there wasn’t one to begin with?

From 'I Ain't Charlie'

I Ain’t Charlie, he’s an Islamophobe
I Ain’t Charlie, everybody’s gotta know
I Ain’t Charlie, he’s dangerous and cruel
Charlie Hebdo is an agent of the Jews

Never barter for our martyrs and for them I will spit more raw
Walk through Jewish Paris with “Je suis Dieudonne” on my tee just to piss y’all off

And so on. There's a lot of it.

I saw someone mention this post ("The Sick World We Live In") on her blog from 2015 and say she was on the 'far left'. She's whinging about her mate Jacob Cohen being made persona non grata by BDS because of his involvement with Soral and Dieudonne. The bit about "islamists" refers to her belief that mossad orchestrated the Charlie Hebdo massacre. She had claimed that the mag is a "piece of shit zio media", probably due to its stance towards the French far right.

We are living in a world where “Islamists” are blamed for murder before the blood has even dried on the pavement. World outrage takes flight before the perpetrator is even apprehended. Yet we are censored and threatened if we dare to say boo to a Jew in jest or in protest at what is being done in their name.

We live in a world where, if our Governments have their way, we will be hamstrung, shackled, gagged and punished for speaking the truth. We already see BDS France enforcing the gagging order on Jacob Cohen for his association with Dieudonne, demonized by the French Government [the Israel possessed Valls] for daring to question and satirize the Jewish narratives that are the bedrock of Zionist impunity. Who the hell gave Judaism any superiority over other religions, faiths and beliefs that only they should be immune from investigation and exposure of wrongdoing?