19force8
For the avoidance of faith
More of one than John Mann, but then so am I
Labour & Anti-Semitism.
- Thread starter cantsin
- Start date
bimble
floofy
Personally i don't really care about his future career. He'd have been fine if he'd managed to keep a handle on his desire to bang on about hitler all the time. Anyway I just wanted to say what I think of your article (with its claim that if people just knew the facts they'd see Livingstone was totally spot on with his 'real collaboration' claim), don't want to get sucked into this shitstorm today.
mikey mikey
Active Member
Fair enough. You have slung your mud, so now you can sling your hook.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
feel free to move beyond 'headlines' , ' politlol' lulz, inevitable Canary comparisons etc on this one
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cantsin
Well-Known Member
I know Tony Greenstein has a hotly disputed reputation ( with the antis v much in the ascendancy on soc media) but it's hard to ignore ( let alone refute ) the sheer volume of historical detail here,all backed up with references, dates, attributed quotes etc, outlining the relationships between the Nazis , assimilated German Jews, and Zionists, who were focused on Palestine. ( All this in the context of the Livingstone case, which last week seems to have had the goalposts moved away from his Havarra / Hitler comments to v thin Naz Shah related ones )
Ken Livingstone faces Labour’s Star Chamber as the Witch-hunters Change the Charge
Would be v useful to see a similarly detailed response to this fairly widely discussed perspective, if anyone knows of one .
Ken Livingstone faces Labour’s Star Chamber as the Witch-hunters Change the Charge
Would be v useful to see a similarly detailed response to this fairly widely discussed perspective, if anyone knows of one .
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Such a good line I don't believe it's original
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
The problem for Livingstone is that Naz Shah held up her hands and said [to paraphrase] "sorry that was anti-semitic and unaccepteble, but I was young and angry, it won't happen again, please forgive me." So he's now caught defending her "anti-semitism" without any of her excuses. It's going to be rough.
The problem I have with Livingstone and Greenstein is that the Hitler question and the comparisons between Zionism and Nazism aren't effective ways to argue against Zionism. They allow Zionists to hide what happened, and is happening, to Palestine behind mock outrage.
Actually, I have a soft spot for Greenstein and often read his blog - that level of obsession has a fascinating quality. Who else would have thought/dared to begin a petition against the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism?
The Charity Commission: To Get the Charity Commission to Deregister the Zionist Campaign Against Anti-Semitism
Greenstein is a nutter, and I've no interest in reading another of his rants so let's just assume he's right on the detail. So what? The problem here (and this is pointed out every time this row surfaces again) isn't that Livingstone was lying - it's that he brought Hitler to a row about antisemitism. It's that he handed Corbyn's enemies a free gift, that he keeps giving them again and again, for no good reason. And it's that the allegation he made - regardless of it's veracity - is a trope used exclusively by racists and antisemites to further their racist, antisemitic ends.
mikey mikey
Active Member
On top of that, he's a left-leaning figure in thr Labour Party and we want all of them out. And the left-leaning members. Cos the LibDem brand has always been weak and forming our own party was a disaster. Operation Cuckoo's Nest is on the go! So purge and smear, purge and smear! Meanwhile, Simon Danczuk everybody. Simon fucking Danczuk.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Clearly not, unless you're claiming that both Livingstone and Greenstein are racists and anti-semites. Which I'd venture to say was an unsustainable assertion.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
I think we were more or less in agreement. On the wisdom of the Hitler argument anyway, if not on the value of certain party members.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Not being in London I'm not going to pronounce on Livingstone's usefulness there, but i can promise you, from one who knocks doors in the constituencies of the south Midlands that Labour will need to win in order to get within a million miles of forming a government, that Livingstone and his demented witterings are electoral poison.
Every time he opens his mouth or even appears on TV we lose more 'possible' voters who have voted Labour previously, but who are unconvinced by Corbyn - and frankly Labour does not enjoy an abundance of credibility, let alone support, in these constituencies.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
What can I say?
I'm a sucker for eccentricity, sue me.
I don't deny that either is a liability (as is most of the PLP, Scottish Labour, etc, etc), but I don't see that as justification for expelling them.
It's not like Livingstone went on celebrity big brother!
I'm a sucker for eccentricity, sue me.
I don't deny that either is a liability (as is most of the PLP, Scottish Labour, etc, etc), but I don't see that as justification for expelling them.
It's not like Livingstone went on celebrity big brother!
cantsin
Well-Known Member
so we'll add Greenstein to your growing list of people / blogs etc you won't engage with past the headline, except to dismiss out of hand, but your last comment makes no sense at all if you accept he's "right on the detail " - unless you're buying into the 'Greenstein's an anti semite' bullshit ?
we've already dealt with this.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Ken Livingstone gets a year's suspension from Labour.
Ken Livingstone Hitler row: Labour suspends former mayor again - BBC News
Not sure what difference it will make except to line the pockets of m'learned friends when he applies for a judicial review.
Ken Livingstone Hitler row: Labour suspends former mayor again - BBC News
Not sure what difference it will make except to line the pockets of m'learned friends when he applies for a judicial review.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Tis remarkable how quickly this has been dealt with compared to the Danczuk saga
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I read him say that he'd take the issue to court because he's not going down as that hitler bloke at this end of his career (paraphrasing OBVS). So its that, he refuses to be known as the anti-semite. Which tbf, would you take that for the good of the Party? I would not. But then I wouldn't have been banging on about hitler's zionism either, the Labour right have been shoeing Livingstone as an anti semite for years. Where was his guard, or his internal voice
mikey mikey
Active Member
Some parts of the church are broader than others.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Maybe Ken has it in mind to have a bunch of expert witnesses debate the historical evidence for the position argued by Brenner in e.g. "Zionism in the Age of the Dictators"?
I mean, if he's persuaded that Brenner's argument is largely correct and thinks that he can get a couple of credible historians to say so, I can see why he might want to.
I mean, if he's persuaded that Brenner's argument is largely correct and thinks that he can get a couple of credible historians to say so, I can see why he might want to.
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19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Not all cartoons are "funny," some are serious and some are satirical. This falls into the latter category, though I did chuckle at the wombat earlier in the week.
Wombats!
bimble
floofy
The whole Livingstone story is so ridiculous.
Just bear in mind that the original thing was that interview when he said: "“Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews."
After shit met fan he has repeatedly said this sort of thing:
"If I'd said Hitler was a Zionist I wouldn't just apologise, I would ask my doctor if it wasn't the first sign of dementia."..
So the important thing is that he only said hitler supported zionism, not that he was actually a zionist. And by the looks of it he fully intends to carry on banging on about this fine distinction for the edification of all and the glory of the labour party.
Just bear in mind that the original thing was that interview when he said: "“Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews."
After shit met fan he has repeatedly said this sort of thing:
"If I'd said Hitler was a Zionist I wouldn't just apologise, I would ask my doctor if it wasn't the first sign of dementia."..
So the important thing is that he only said hitler supported zionism, not that he was actually a zionist. And by the looks of it he fully intends to carry on banging on about this fine distinction for the edification of all and the glory of the labour party.
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brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
The whole Livingstone story is so ridiculous.
Only ridiculous if you ignore the context in which Livingstone 'came out fighting'. The zionist alliance of the Israeli state/Regev, CFI & LFI came up with a particularly effective synergy of advancing their own interests whilst undermining the Labour left and, as is still being seen, damaging the Labour 'brand' as a whole.
Worked well, didn't it?
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