Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[SpineyNorman]

I don't reckon Moses really did part the Red Sea so people should stop banging on about the holocaust.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

You may or may not be an actual anti semite, but you're definitely a useful idiot for antisemitism

I doubt he’s that useful tbf.

 

[butchersapron]

Without reading the whole thread, has anyone in the right wing "Labour are Nazis" faction asked themselves the pertinent question "is Judaism just a silly religious bollox undeserving of respect like all the others?"


......or isn't this an appropriate fight pit for humanists?


Stupid little hats and prayers are stupid regardless of label. This applies to Methodists and Muslims.

So what you're saying is that there is an attack on jewish people by the labour party and that this is justified because it's motivated by atheism.

Nice one.

 

[andysays]

So what you're saying is that there is an attack on jewish people by the labour party and that this is justified because it's motivated by atheism.

Nice one.

And because they wear "silly little hats"

 

[CNT36]

West Cornwall latest.
Labour candidate in Cornwall responds to anti-Semitism claims

Mr Dwelly tweeted: "Labour’s candidate in St Ives Alana Bates wants Israel abolished.

"Her band sings that Palestine should be “one state”. Israel should be “out of the Middle East”, is a “racist state”. Repulsive racism. She should be expelled by Labour immediately."

Dwelly helps run a page called Cornwall Antisemitism Watch. It usually just takes facebook comments out of context but has exposed a few proper twats. The song here has been slightly misrepresented as the lyric is "troops out of the middle east."

 

[Proper Tidy]

West Cornwall latest.
Labour candidate in Cornwall responds to anti-Semitism claims


Dwelly helps run a page called Cornwall Antisemitism Watch. It usually just takes facebook comments out of context but has exposed a few proper twats. The song here has been slightly misrepresented as the lyric is "troops out of the middle east."

Not commenting on anything else but I thought a one state solution was a relatively mainstream position

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not commenting on anything else but I thought a one state solution was a relatively mainstream position

Anything other than two states means necessarily an end to 'the Jewish State'. That's characerised by some as extremist and anti-Semitic. It's often assumed wrongly to mean expelling Jews from the area, rather than, say, a secular state that incorporates both Jews and Arabs.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not commenting on anything else but I thought a one state solution was a relatively mainstream position

that is after all what things are tending towards

 

[CNT36]

Also saying Israel is a racist state is not the same thing as saying it is a racist endeavour.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Also saying Israel is a racist state is not the same thing as saying it is a racist endeavour.

It's not that far off, though. Establishing an explicitly - and exclusively - Jewish state in a place where the numbers are close to 50:50 is a questionable endeavour in and of itself, racism-wise. Hard to see how Israel as currently constituted could be maintained in an entirely racism-free way, tbh.

Surely the key point can be put more strongly: calling Israel, the idea of a Jewish state in that place, a racist endeavour is not in and of itself anti-Semitic, which is the specific charge.

 

[CNT36]

It's not that far off, though. Establishing an explicitly - and exclusively - Jewish state in a place where the numbers are close to 50:50 is a questionable endeavour in and of itself, racism-wise. Hard to see how Israel as currently constituted could be maintained in an entirely racism-free way, tbh.

Surely the key point can be put more strongly: calling Israel, the idea of a Jewish state in that place, a racist endeavour is not in and of itself anti-Semitic, which is the specific charge.

Dwelly uses the EHRC definition and racist endeavour is an example they use.

 

[Libertad]

West Cornwall latest.
Labour candidate in Cornwall responds to anti-Semitism claims


Dwelly helps run a page called Cornwall Antisemitism Watch. It usually just takes facebook comments out of context but has exposed a few proper twats. The song here has been slightly misrepresented as the lyric is "troops out of the middle east."

Tbf Tim Dwelly is a right cunt.

 

[CNT36]

Tbf Tim Dwelly is a right cunt.

Seems that way.

 

[Gramsci]

Not commenting on anything else but I thought a one state solution was a relatively mainstream position

It is contentious. Tony Judt ( historian) got a lot of flack for deciding one state solution was necessary years back. Its still not mainstream position. Mainstream position would be two state solution.

The IHRA defintition has examples of anti Semitism. This is the relevant one:

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Using this example ( which the Labour party has adopted) it could be argued that supporting one state solution is anti Semitic as its denying the Jewish people right to self determination.

Working Definition of Antisemitism

 

[Cloo]

To me, a good way to avoid coming over as antisemitic re: Israel is to say 'The Israeli government is/has....' (eg 'The Israeli government has created an apartheid state...' rather than 'Israel is...'. The fact is, like it or not, any right to be there or not, Israel is there and it's not going away or moving to South America and I think it's a simple way to make your point and make it less likely to come over as demonising Israelis or Jews in general.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To me, a good way to avoid coming over as antisemitic re: Israel is to say 'The Israeli government is/has....' (eg 'The Israeli government has created an apartheid state...' rather than 'Israel is...'. The fact is, like it or not, any right to be there or not, Israel is there and it's not going away or moving to South America and I think it's a simple way to make your point and make it less likely to come over as demonising Israelis or Jews in general.

Totally agree. There is fault on both sides here, though. There are those who don't manage to make their points without coming over as demonising Israelis or Jews in general, and sadly Corbyn himself has been guilty of this. And there are those who will wilfully misrepresent the views of others as anti-Semitic when they've been careful not to be.

 

[teqniq]

Two state solution has been dead for years.

 

[19force8]

Two state solution has been dead for years.

I'm pretty sure that's the position of the Israeli government.

(BTW, I'm not implying that you're a mouthpiece for the Israeli govt )

 

[danny la rouge]

Using this example ( which the Labour party has adopted) it could be argued that supporting one state solution is anti Semitic as its denying the Jewish people right to self determination.

It depends on how you read this:

“Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.”

Here it says “a state of Israel” not the state of Israel, or this state of Israel, or Israel as currently constituted and run.

This is related to the point Cloo makes: it’s important to be clear about what you’re criticising. Not “the Jews”. Not “the Israelis”. But a particular state structure and specific policy implementation.

I’d argue that the current state of Israel is a racist endeavour: it seeks to be a Jewish state. If it sought to be a state in which Jews (and other residents) could live and exercise self determination, that’s a different matter. A secular, non discriminatory, democratic state of Israel is just fine. A racist, apartheid state is not.

 

[Proper Tidy]

It depends on how you read this:

“Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.”

Here it says “a state of Israel” not the state of Israel, or this state of Israel, or Israel as currently constituted and run.

This is related to the point Cloo makes: it’s important to be clear about what you’re criticising. Not “the Jews”. Not “the Israelis”. But a particular state structure and specific policy implementation.

I’d argue that the current state of Israel is a racist endeavour: it seeks to be a Jewish state. If it sought to be a state in which Jews (and other residents) could live and exercise self determination, that’s a different matter. A secular, non discriminatory, democratic state of Israel is just fine. A racist, apartheid state is not.

Yeah this is spot on. Otherwise a belief in securalism, much less socialism of any stripe, would be in and of itself legislatively antisemitic

 

[Knotted]

It depends on how you read this:

“Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.”

Here it says “a state of Israel” not the state of Israel, or this state of Israel, or Israel as currently constituted and run.

This is related to the point Cloo makes: it’s important to be clear about what you’re criticising. Not “the Jews”. Not “the Israelis”. But a particular state structure and specific policy implementation.

I’d argue that the current state of Israel is a racist endeavour: it seeks to be a Jewish state. If it sought to be a state in which Jews (and other residents) could live and exercise self determination, that’s a different matter. A secular, non discriminatory, democratic state of Israel is just fine. A racist, apartheid state is not.

However, who would way "A state of Israel is a racist endeavour"? Virtually nobody and if they do they are probably Jewish of either a leftwing variety or ultra-orthodox variety. Anti-semites don't get hung up on the question of the concept of Jewish self-determination in the abstract.

 

[CNT36]

The definition had words to the effect that you should not treat Israel differently to other democratic states. Israel would not be the first democratic state to merge with a poorer neighbour they'd been in conflict with for decades.

 

[19force8]

"merge"

 

[Pickman's model]

The definition had words to the effect that you should not treat Israel differently to other democratic states. Israel would not be the first democratic state to merge with a poorer neighbour they'd been in conflict with for decades.

if the zionist entity has merged with what are commonly known as the occupied territories, why don't the people in the ot get a vote in the zionist entity's elections?

 

[danny la rouge]

However, who would way "A state of Israel is a racist endeavour"? Virtually nobody and if they do they are probably Jewish of either a leftwing variety or ultra-orthodox variety. Anti-semites don't get hung up on the question of the concept of Jewish self-determination in the abstract.

It’d be a clumsy sentence. But the change of pronoun is no small matter. It allows for a completely different attitude.

 

[CNT36]

if the zionist entity has merged with what are commonly known as the occupied territories, why don't the people in the ot get a vote in the zionist entity's elections?

I was talking about the possibility of a one state solution not something that has already happened. I should have been clearer.

 

[Pickman's model]

I was talking about the possibility of a one state solution not something that has already happened. I should have been clearer.

there are numerous residents of the west bank who enjoy the vote in knesset elections: but also a great number who are not afforded a vote for the government of tel aviv, which government wields a great power over their lives. with this in mind i am unclear as to the democratic quality of the zionist entity you referred to in your 3112

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The definition had words to the effect that you should not treat Israel differently to other democratic states. Israel would not be the first democratic state to merge with a poorer neighbour they'd been in conflict with for decades.

Just to be clear, Israel is not 'in conflict' with its 'neighbour' Palestine. Israel rules Palestine, which is effectively no different from the so-called homelands, the bantustans of apartheid South Africa.

And just saying the above will get you labelled anti-Semitic by some, notably many from the Israeli government, who cynically use the first bit to call out any criticism whatever of Israel as anti-Semitic if it isn't at the same time accompanied by equivalent condemnation of every bad state in the world.

Also that above definition contains within it disputable claims. Israel is democratic, for instance. Is it? What say do Palestinians have over how they are ruled? Israel is no more democratic than apartheid South Africa, in that sense. And again, that will be called out as anti-Semitic as a means of shutting down debate.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The definition had words to the effect that you should not treat Israel differently to other democratic states. Israel would not be the first democratic state to merge with a poorer neighbour they'd been in conflict with for decades.

Merge?

Colonised, brutalised and expelled through land grabs doesn't have the same sanitised ring to it obviously.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I was talking about the possibility of a one state solution not something that has already happened. I should have been clearer.

Some consider that it already has happened. Remember the Israeli tourist board poster on the Tube a few years back, the one they had to take down after complaints about its borders?