Ken Loach and dubious "anti-semitism" claims

[belboid]

no of course i don't agree with it .. and it is the classic anti semitic trick .. that anti semitism is created by the jews themselves ... it is ALL their own fault .. if only they had all assimilated etc etc

( oh shite that didn't work in germany did it?? )

Right, so can we just be clear. you don't think that the Israeli state claiming to represent all jews, that any attack upon it is an attack upon all jewry has any effect at all? that's simply not a tenable argument is it? I doubt even Zachor would say that.

 

[durruti02]

yes, of course. Anti-semitism does obviously have a long and vile history, which does impact upon any modern discourse.

The Israeli state does also exacerbate that conflation tho


taking something on this issue from Zachor simply on trust??!! Now that is silly

fuck zachor .. ignore him ..

so "..The Israeli state does also exacerbate that conflation tho.."

is NOT

" ..nothing has been a greater instigator of antisemitism than the self-proclaimed Jewish state itself..." Ken Loach

is it??

 

[durruti02]

Right, so can we just be clear. you don't think that the Israeli state claiming to represent all jews, that any attack upon it is an attack upon all jewry has any effect at all? that's simply not a tenable argument is it? I doubt even Zachor would say that.

sorry this ^^ makes no sense to me .. please put it in differrent words

 

[belboid]

Israel often claims that it represents all jews. It's leaders often state that an attack upon it is an attack upon all jews. Doing so is an explicit policy of the Israeli state, to engender the belief that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic.

Given that for the Israeli state, Israel = Jew, is it surprising that many other people then adopt the same viewpoint? Doesn't that action of the Israeli state create anti-semitism?

 

[frogwoman]

Maybe not create anti-semitism but certainly legitimises it.

 

[durruti02]

Israel often claims that it represents all jews. It's leaders often state that an attack upon it is an attack upon all jews. Doing so is an explicit policy of the Israeli state, to engender the belief that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic.

Given that for the Israeli state, Israel = Jew, is it surprising that many other people then adopt the same viewpoint? Doesn't that action of the Israeli state create anti-semitism?

yes .. i am not arguing that Isreali policy that has over the years become increasingly ultra zionist can help create amnti semitism .. i am disagreeing with

" ..nothing has been a greater instigator of antisemitism than the self-proclaimed Jewish state itself..." Ken Loach

the point is where the fuck were the jews suppose to fucking go? what the fuck were the supposed to do?? they were driven out of europe and africa and the middle east .. so they go to israel and end up rowing over land with people there and low and behold the jews are creating anti semitism all over again ..

 

[belboid]

where were they supposed to go???!!! dear god.....

not a place where there was already a large population hey would have to evict by force would have been a good start. it was a strategy always doomed to failure, one that has exacerbated anti-semisim not helped it. just as black americans could never have left and created a wonderful free land in africa, so zionism was never any kind of solution ofor anti-semitism.

I'd have thought that was obvious to any socialist or person who recalls the works of the Bund, as I'm sure you do

 

[durruti02]

where were they supposed to go???!!! dear god.....

not a place where there was already a large population hey would have to evict by force would have been a good start. it was a strategy always doomed to failure, one that has exacerbated anti-semisim not helped it. just as black americans could never have left and created a wonderful free land in africa, so zionism was never any kind of solution ofor anti-semitism.

I'd have thought that was obvious to any socialist or person who recalls the works of the Bund, as I'm sure you do

wow!! really?? africans can go back to africa ( as many have done ) but jews can't go back to palestine .. this is really fucking outrageous BB .. do you KNOW what happenned in europe in trhe holocaust??? FFS .. and carried on by the poles after 1945 unbelievably who yes htought that the jews had brought the nazis on them??

so where the fuck were the jews to go?? oh disappear? like Marx thought? yes i am against relegion too but it has to come frm inside a community NOT be imposed ( hence my thread on muslims)

i think you have no fucking idea what happenned in 1933-45 Belboid no fucking idea .. and until you did you will continue to blame the jews for anti semitism and hence legitimate this happening again in palestine

you presumably supported the british navy torpedoing boats of Holocaust survivors from entering palestine??

and you are clearly ignorent that people have made way for each other or been force to more like in most countries ..

zionism would have been pretty irrelevent without european anti semitism .. as a european you and i have never really dealt with that imho .. ( we did fuck all for the jews at the camps .. we stopped jewish refugees .. we locked UP jewish refugees for being german! lol )

 

[belboid]

no, of course I've no idea

you're dissembling honestly shocks me here durutti, and your namesake would be utterly ashamed of you.

by the way, you are clearly utterly ignorant of the history of blacks in america.

Anyone with half a brain knew that the creation of Israel would be a disaster for all, not least those jewsd who chose to move there. I'm stunned that you do not recognise that simple fact.

 

[In Bloom]

it isn't under any circumstances understandable to blame jews; but it would be understandable to blame isrealis...

Surely this comes back (again) to the distinction between understandable and justifiable? In any case, it's equally unjustifiable to blame Israelis as a group for the Israeli state's actions, which do not have universal support in Israel.

Anyway, I'd largely agree with belboid here, though I do think it was an incredibly foolish choice of words. I'd be curious to know the whole context of this:

But the director, who has spoken out against Israel in the past, branded the report as a "red herring" designed to "distract attention" from Israel's recent military actions.

The only way I can think that the report referred to would come up at all would be if somebody mentioned it before Loach, which might lead him to label it a "red herring" in the context of Palestine, rather than him actually saying that the report was "designed to "distract attention" from Isreal's recent military actions".

 

[In Bloom]

Jenny Tonge got in big trouble when she expressed an opinion that she could understand why some people became suicide bombers. She may of worded it quite badly, but it was interesting to see that apparently we are not supposed to try to understand the mindset of people, the nature of desperation, instead we are supposed to talk of people as monsters, committing evil acts that are absolutely impossible to understand. What bullshit with transparent motives.

Large helpings of this

 

[laptop]

Well, the process _is_ perfectly understandable, isn't it? State claims to be intrinsically Jewish and to represent Jews and Judaism; state's supporters routinely call any criticism of it anti-semitic; state is regularly referred to as "the Jewish state" in the media; state carries out well-publicised military actions against civilians; anti-semites say "see? they are bastards!"

This.

State claims interests of Jews and Israel are identical; state is cunt; state complains when people get confused between state being cunt and...

State loops argument around to claim that all Jews should leave home and join it because anti-semites believe its own propaganda that, er, all Jews belong to it and are responsible for it...

 

[danny la rouge]

wrong look at his comments above 'self proclaimed' ( wtf does THAT mean!!) 'instigator' .. they are to blame?? it is accusation with no history, no context, no understanding .. he should know better

Well, I was talking about this thread, so I'm not wrong.

But even adding in your link to the JC.com version of the comments, I'm not seeing anti-Semitism.

individuals and organisations behind Operation Cast Lead would “have to pay” for their actions.

- Won't they? Shouldn't they?

I think this will be seen as one of the great crimes of the last decades because of the cold blooded massacre that we witnessed.

- I'd hope any honest and just history would see it as such.

Unless we take a stand against it we are complicit.

- Wouldn't you agree?

we all abhor racism in whatever form, wherever it comes

- Yup.

nothing has been a greater instigator of antisemitism than the self-proclaimed Jewish state itself.

- Well, we can question the "nothing has", but certainly the actions of the state of Israel have generated anti-Semitism. Certainly in Loach's time-frame of "the last decades", the actions of the Israeli state take some beating in that respect.

self-proclaimed Jewish state

- It is. That's the point. It wasn't enough to have a homeland Jews and Arabs could share, it had to be a Jewish state. The ideology of a Jewish state is an intrinsic part of the issue.

Until we deal with that, until that is acknowledged, then racism, I’m afraid, will be with us

- Again, what's controversial here? Like I said above, we can pretend, if you like, that the inappropriate, racist reaction to the actions of the Israeli state is in fact completely unconnected with that state's actions, but if we do that we are complicit in perpetuating the problem.

 

[danny la rouge]

The only way I can think that the report referred to would come up at all would be if somebody mentioned it before Loach, which might lead him to label it a "red herring" in the context of Palestine, rather than him actually saying that the report was "designed to "distract attention" from Isreal's recent military actions".

Indeed, as is often the case, journo brings something up in a question, then reports it as if the answer is the first mention.

However, Loach may (I don't know) have been aware of the FRA's Working Definition of Anti-Semitism.

It includes things we'd all agree were anti-Semitic, but does also include things I'd certainly question:

• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Like, for example, saying the walling-in of Gaza was like the walling-in of the Warsaw ghetto? Or, for example, calling Gaza "the world's biggest concentration camp"? - That sort of thing?

• claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

It isn't necessarily so, as a concept, but couldn't you argue that actually existing Zionism has been?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

am i missing something here?

I think there'd be few to disagree with the sentiment of what's beign said by loach regardless of the pedantry of the semantics.

If people with a wider audience are expressing revulsion at what is happening in palestine and that then turns it from being a 60+year terrorist conflict into a humanised reality for a larger group of people then that's a good thing.

it's only once this conflict is humanised again when all the polemic is sucked from it that people will finally decide that there has to be an acceptable solution other than more killing land theift racist attacks fear and hate.

so if someone inarticulately draws attention to the conflict regardless of the way they said it and highlights the issue then this is ultimately a step closer.

I guess we live in a seleb based world now most people get their information from selebs telling them infomercial sound bites about the world they live in. and like the Debutantes of the previous generations whose avid society followers would tune into the wireless to listen to the lastest rave revues at the start of the social season we in modern times consume with the same furvor these modern day debutantes.

and so the issue falls on to the radar of people who do get their information in that way.

So as an action of rasing awareness it works i guess regardless of what was said, how it was said etc.

the other issues aren't really for the word of selebs anyways but then that's not the function of the seleb.

 

[editor]

So. we're all agreed. It is far from a "sad end for Ken Loach" and this thread is all about Zachor driving his personal agenda, yes?

 

[quimcunx]

I suggest altering the title to something that makes sense. The current one is misleading, on several levels.

 

[editor]

I think you're right.

 

[quimcunx]

Cheers.

G'night.

 

[danny la rouge]

I think there'd be few to disagree with the sentiment of what's beign said by loach regardless of the pedantry of the semantics.

There we go, then.

 

[dennisr]

So. we're all agreed. It is far from a "sad end for Ken Loach" and this thread is all about Zachor driving his personal agenda, yes?

yep exactly, votes are 1 against, everyone else for

 

[Fedayn]

I suggest altering the title to something that makes sense. The current one is misleading, on several levels.

How about 'My name is Zachor and unless you defend everything Israel has ever done and ever will do, see any ctiticism of Israel as drooling anti-semitism, you are an anti-semite desperate to deny the Holocaust, defend suicide bombers and praying for the Iranians to wipe Israel out of existence'

Sound about right to you?

 

[durruti02]

1)no, of course I've no idea

2)you're dissembling honestly shocks me here durutti, and your namesake would be utterly ashamed of you.

3)by the way, you are clearly utterly ignorant of the history of blacks in america.

4)Anyone with half a brain knew that the creation of Israel would be a disaster for all, not least those jewsd who chose to move there. I'm stunned that you do not recognise that simple fact.

1)if you had an idea you would be less obsessed with the crimes of the israeli state and more concerned with why they happen

2)yeah whatever .. ( wtf is dissembling?)

3)bullshit with no basis but hey

4)all nation states are bullshit .. and israel is no differrent .. but in 1945 the state of israel was not regarded by most as a disaster .. in all of europe people were moving from one place to another to create new nations .. the idea of creating new countries was nothing new at the time .. the idea of great waves of migration was nothing new then

and as i asked before where the fuck were the jews suppossed to go?? most countries in europe were complicit in their attempted annihaliation .. the germans, the french, the italains ( reluctantly), the dutch, the hungarians, the poles, the rumanians .. were they supposed to go to russia where judaism was being disapperred theoretcially and physically and where many jews refugees did literally disappear?? or should they have gone to madagascar?lol .. and as i said the UK didn't want them .. so they shoud ALL have gone to america? lol

you clearly do not know the history of 1948 either and that the arab armies invaded israel to try to wipe it out ..

you are happy to understand why some muslims turn to violence yet you deny the jews the right in israel to defend themselves in1948 and after, as all nations do lol .. jews appear to be the only people who you deny the right to a nation and the right to violence

THIS is why i think you honestly do NOT understand the holocaust and anti semitism

.. because you clearly do not understand what the fuck the jews were suppossed to do in 1945

.. and cos you do NOT understand how anti-semitism works by blaming the victim

it would be so much easier for all of us if those pesky jews just disapperred wouldn't it??

 

[durruti02]

So, when you understand why people vote BNP as a result of the failures of Labour et al does that mean you agree with their conclusion? Or does it mean exactly that, you understand that a process takes place whether or not you are in favour of that process, it is one that is happening. I entirely understand why anti-semitic feeling is on the rise as a response to the behaviour of the Israeli establishment and the IDF. I utterly oppose and condemn the rise in anti-semitism but I understand the process at work that 'causes' it.

" ..nothing has been a greater instigator of antisemitism than the self-proclaimed Jewish state itself..." Ken Loach

that is NOT what you are saying is it Fed?

 

[durruti02]

1)Well, I was talking about this thread, so I'm not wrong.

2)But even adding in your link to the JC.com version of the comments, I'm not seeing anti-Semitism.

3)individuals and organisations behind Operation Cast Lead would “have to pay” for their actions.

- Won't they? Shouldn't they?

4)I think this will be seen as one of the great crimes of the last decades because of the cold blooded massacre that we witnessed.

- I'd hope any honest and just history would see it as such.

5)Unless we take a stand against it we are complicit.

- Wouldn't you agree?

6)we all abhor racism in whatever form, wherever it comes

- Yup.

7)nothing has been a greater instigator of antisemitism than the self-proclaimed Jewish state itself.

- Well, we can question the "nothing has", but certainly the actions of the state of Israel have generated anti-Semitism. Certainly in Loach's time-frame of "the last decades", the actions of the Israeli state take some beating in that respect.

8)self-proclaimed Jewish state

- It is. That's the point. It wasn't enough to have a homeland Jews and Arabs could share, it had to be a Jewish state. The ideology of a Jewish state is an intrinsic part of the issue.

9)Until we deal with that, until that is acknowledged, then racism, I’m afraid, will be with us

- Again, what's controversial here? Like I said above, we can pretend, if you like, that the inappropriate, racist reaction to the actions of the Israeli state is in fact completely unconnected with that state's actions, but if we do that we are complicit in perpetuating the problem.

1) i try to ignore zachors spin on look at what he has referred to

2) 'version' what are you suggestting he didnlt say that?

3) it's a fucking war .. are we going to sue?? lol

4) no simply no .. nasty but in a heavily built up area of 1.5 million only 1500 people were killed most of who were hamas combatents .. so yes horrible but clearly NOT one of the greatest crimes of the last decades ( turkish attacks in kurdistan, the US in vietnam, the US carpet bombing iraqi troops, the iran iraq war, lebanon several times, the jordanian attack on the PLO even etc etc are all far far worse ) ..

5) there is much to take a stand against .. i wonder why some take stands against some things and not others

6) good

7) that is an absurd comment by him with no historical understanding or context

8) uppity jews eh? wanted a country of their own what wrong with them? i thought lenin supportted nationalism??

9) the nationalist violence of those jews in palestine can NOT be solved by simply opposing THEIR nationalism but ALL nationalism ..

 

[durruti02]

I'd have thought that was obvious to any socialist or person who recalls the works of the Bund, as I'm sure you do

and as a jew in 1945 who would you have thought had been shown to have had the right strategy .. the Zionists or the Bund? hmm

 

[belboid]

1)if you had an idea you would be less obsessed with the crimes of the israeli state and more concerned with why they happen

2)yeah whatever .. ( wtf is dissembling?)

3)bullshit with no basis but hey

4)all nation states are bullshit .. and israel is no differrent .. but in 1945 the state of israel was not regarded by most as a disaster .. in all of europe people were moving from one place to another to create new nations .. the idea of creating new countries was nothing new at the time .. the idea of great waves of migration was nothing new then

and as i asked before where the fuck were the jews suppossed to go?? most countries in europe were complicit in their attempted annihaliation .. the germans, the french, the italains ( reluctantly), the dutch, the hungarians, the poles, the rumanians .. were they supposed to go to russia where judaism was being disapperred theoretcially and physically and where many jews refugees did literally disappear?? or should they have gone to madagascar?lol .. and as i said the UK didn't want them .. so they shoud ALL have gone to america? lol

you clearly do not know the history of 1948 either and that the arab armies invaded israel to try to wipe it out ..

you are happy to understand why some muslims turn to violence yet you deny the jews the right in israel to defend themselves in1948 and after, as all nations do lol .. jews appear to be the only people who you deny the right to a nation and the right to violence

THIS is why i think you honestly do NOT understand the holocaust and anti semitism

.. because you clearly do not understand what the fuck the jews were suppossed to do in 1945

.. and cos you do NOT understand how anti-semitism works by blaming the victim

it would be so much easier for all of us if those pesky jews just disapperred wouldn't it??

you're ignorance is only outdone by your arrogance durutti. and such utterly hypocritical nonsense as well, it's almost funny how you are doing exactly what you are (supposedly) criticising others for. you too are joining in with the 'to criticise israel is anti-semitic' drivel.

You don't understand anything about history, racism, imperialism, or the opposition to those things. And that ignorance leads you straight to a defence of the indefensible, and having to dissemble (look it up) about others' views.

Shameful.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

and as a jew in 1945 who would you have thought had been shown to have had the right strategy .. the Zionists or the Bund? hmm

It's not 1945, though. Jews are not a persecuted minority, well, anywhere now. And the 'solution' that was Israel (it was never much of a solution for displaced Palestinians) is now the problem. Any state that has set geographical borders needs to represent everyone within those borders equally regardless of race, cultural tradition or religion. Israel fails on this count, and as long as it continues to fail peace will not come.

A one-state solution is the only way to bring peace, but we're a long way from that at the moment. I'm pessimistic – it could take 50 or more years for this to be sorted.

 

[belboid]

and as a jew in 1945 who would you have thought had been shown to have had the right strategy .. the Zionists or the Bund? hmm

do you mean the Zionists who were complicit with Hitler? The ones who thought his rise would help them achieve their desire of a homeland??? You couldn't make your daftness up.

 

[belboid]

(it was never much of a solution for displaced Palestinians)

it was never a solution for the jews either, as the vast majority of them always recognised.