ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
She lost her daughter in a suicide bombing in Jerusalem in 1997.Interestingly Zachor doesn't mention this bit at the end of the link...
No doubt this person is a raving Jew-baiter a la Streicher too....
Ken Loach and dubious "anti-semitism" claims
- Thread starter Zachor
- Start date
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
not saying it does i was picking up on the misuse of language in what is specifically a language based conflict inso far as using or misusing terms to atribute actions to sides and how those actions are defined.
In this instance the post suggesting that Isrealis and Jews are interchangable, which of course they are not.
I'm suggesting neither that you or Ken Loach are juedophobic, merely that by implicating all jews or isrealis as interchangable terms is... inherantly.
however i concure with your sentiment critism of isreali miltary action doens't equate to feelings of juedophobia or the wider jewry populace...
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
I think there's also an issue atm of seperation of Palestinians and Gazans they are they same.
The issues of palestine are the issues of Gaza and vice versa.
To continue using the approved rhetoric and maintaining the assumed and inferred seperation serves to further deligitmise the poltical choice of all Palestinians to have hamas as their elected leadership.
The W/B having not been handed over to hamas by Fatah and in effect this can be seen as a futher attempt by western powers at conferring legitimacy on their preffered partner Fatah rather than having to deal with the terrorist's Hamas...
which should also not be supported as this is clearly against the will of the palestinian people.
Nor should it be forgotten that the reason that Hamas got in was primarily the corruption and inaction of Fatah since the disbanded PLO movement became the PA in terms of organiseational hireachy, this couplled with a stated aim of Hamas to return the situation to the action and defence of Palestine against the invasionary and occupational forces. This is what was wanted by the majority of palestinian people or they would not have elected who they did.
there's of course a reasoned debate to be had as to whether the actions taken in support of the continued PLO type actions in insisting on a free and contigious state is legitiamate given the poltical landscape however it should also be recognised that this is more in the way of anti Hamas propaganda which ultimately boils down to anti Palestinian propaganda...
The issues of palestine are the issues of Gaza and vice versa.
To continue using the approved rhetoric and maintaining the assumed and inferred seperation serves to further deligitmise the poltical choice of all Palestinians to have hamas as their elected leadership.
The W/B having not been handed over to hamas by Fatah and in effect this can be seen as a futher attempt by western powers at conferring legitimacy on their preffered partner Fatah rather than having to deal with the terrorist's Hamas...
which should also not be supported as this is clearly against the will of the palestinian people.
Nor should it be forgotten that the reason that Hamas got in was primarily the corruption and inaction of Fatah since the disbanded PLO movement became the PA in terms of organiseational hireachy, this couplled with a stated aim of Hamas to return the situation to the action and defence of Palestine against the invasionary and occupational forces. This is what was wanted by the majority of palestinian people or they would not have elected who they did.
there's of course a reasoned debate to be had as to whether the actions taken in support of the continued PLO type actions in insisting on a free and contigious state is legitiamate given the poltical landscape however it should also be recognised that this is more in the way of anti Hamas propaganda which ultimately boils down to anti Palestinian propaganda...
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
no id on't either but it goes to show how critical the language used around this subject is...
sadly, the elephant in the room is often the specture of judeophobia when commenting on these matters and time in time out the misuse of language means that it encourages this type of argument for what could in effect have been negated for want of a bit more care...
the points being made and their vaildity are entirely different from the manner in which they are made.
the confusion comes when a for want of extreme polemic examples
a nazi says
when your house is being bombed, your kids killed and the warplanes have Israeli markings, it is understandable to blame Jews.
or a peace activist says
when your house is being bombed, your kids killed and the warplanes have Israeli markings, it is understandable to blame Jews.
it isn't under any circumstances understandable to blame jews; but it would be understandable to blame isrealis...
language here is critical...
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
but under the circumstances that do exist - not least the Israeli states self-description of itself as the jewish state - it IS understandable that some people will make that kind of comment. Indeed, one could argue that the Israeli state thrives off that position. Which is not to say it is right or defensible, but it is understandable.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
but they have seen their co-religionists, people who they consider (and may well actually be) their brothers and sisters, bombed to bits. you seem to be deliberately missing the point.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
it's scertainly a benifical situation to exist where any and all critic can be phrased as juedophobic behaviour it doesn't mean that you should pander towards encouaging that default position by actualyl conflagrating the two in precisely the manner which allows the Isreali govt to do so...
It's playing into their hands and of course gives rise to the ancient and old chestnust well they are anitsemitic in their actions hence their comments which deflects even the most staunch critic of the situation...
Co-religionists?
Since when has the Left cared about co-religionists, I dont see such argument used about the Christians, for example, who are being butchered around the world? These people are now French, Dutch, English, etc, yes some may be of Palestinian descent and have relatives, but very few. I don't care about people as co-religionists, people yes, the Palestinians should be supported because of human right violations, etc, not because of an adherence to a particular Abrahamic religion.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
Maybe i'm being incoherant here (it has been known!!)
the content of the discussion isn't in dispute.
people who say:
when your house is being bombed, your kids killed and the warplanes have Israeli markings, it is understandable to blame Jews.
They are instantly falling into the trap of conflgrating isrealis and jews as being entirely interchangeable.
This in itself is juedophobic, regardless of the senitment inside of the comment ie
"there is a understandable feeling which would lead some into retailiation for the actions of war committed on a largley and predominantly civial population by isreali military" is fine it's the conferred sentiment of all isrealis are all jews which isn't fine...
Also it's a bit biased and unknowledgeable to assume to speak for all european muslims and espouse and opinion which inferres this is their reasoning...
and ultimately come from the same standpoint as all isrealis are jews...
The assumption is that both sides are homoginous units which can be easliy identified by jew or arab. which we know of course they cannot.
to further discussion around such terminology without seeking to clarify and specify the peoples you are discussing will only ever lead to sloppy and disjointed or even misinterpretted comments about the situation.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I'm afraid i think you are.
actually, it does appear to be
so the Israeli state itself is judeophobic?
No one on here has said that that elision is fine, or correct, or anything of the kind, but it is understnadlabel when exactly the same argument (Israel = Judaism) is mnade by the Israeli state.
No one has done that tho, indeed, mostly people have very explicitly said that it is NOT all muslims or jews who hold such a view.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
not at all i'm taking issue with the language used rather than the content.
no more than a black person using the n word is racist...
what the isreali state chooses to define itself as is entirely irrelevant to the obivous statement which conflagrates isrealis and jews as being interchangeable.
It's the words themselves.
Isreali isn't Jew and Jew isn't Isreali.
It's irrelvant that Israel defines itself as a jewish state. has no bearing on the assumptive nature of conflagrating the word jew and the word isreali.
the comment isn't aimed at anyone here it's aimed at anyone who would mistakenly misuse langauge when discussing the subject which leads to lazy and assumptive argument counter argument about juedophobia rather than about the subejct matter at hand (it the situation which has prompted the discussion in the first place).
to put it another way if i call you a fucking cunt on here it's likely that however vaild my argument is you will not debate that but debate the manner in which it was put accross to you and my intended insult against you. it matters little if you agree or disagree with the point you are already going to take issue at being attacked aggressively without due cause...
this will the colour all subsiquent discussion to be had on any subject matter because you can dimiss my points as being irrelvant because I have shown my nature and the motiveation behind it and also against you as a poster by calling you a fuckign cunt...
others might step in and say garf don't call them a cunt it's not on, but regardless you aren't going to be as accepting of the vaild point being made because you are already on the defensive...
By making the same elementary mistake time in time out social commintators do regularlly interchange jew and isreali as being one and the same and it has the same reaction.
as i've said had what have been said been:
when your house is being bombed, your kids killed and the warplanes have Israeli markings, it is understandable to blame Israelis.
insted of :
when your house is being bombed, your kids killed and the warplanes have Israeli markings, it is understandable to blame Jews.
then this would have been better and avioded the entire conversation as to the intended or unintended Juedophobia...
again it's not an issue of it being on the thread the original quote from loach makes this elementary mistake and swaps isreali for jew halfway through the paragraph...
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Not so. The fact that Israel defines itself in such a manner, and often defines criticism of itself as criticism of ALL jewry is absolutely central. It is the main reason why such a wider conflation exists.
I agree with your middle comments - as i think everyone else on here does too - so there's no need for me to respond to them.
mmm, no he doesn't.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Nobody is saying that the terms 'Jew' and 'Israeli' are interchangeable. Nor is anyone suggesting that all Jews (or indeed all Israelis) are responsible for the actions of the Israeli state. What they are suggesting is that when people do conflate the two, and inappropriately blame Jews for Israeli state actions, that that is understandable. Not pardonable, not condonable, but understandable.
In other word, people are wrong to blame Jews when your kids killed and the warplanes have Israeli markings, but that it is at least possible to see why they might, especially given the Israeli state's self-identification ideology.
That is what's being said.
http://thejc.com/articles/jews-are-paying-price-gaza-says-loach "“I know there have been recently statements about the rise in antisemitism. Well of course we all abhor racism in whatever form, wherever it comes, but nothing has been a greater instigator of antisemitism than the self-proclaimed Jewish state itself.
“Until we deal with that, until that is acknowledged, then racism, I’m afraid, will be with us.”
personally i think it is shite absolute shite and fits in entirely with anti semitism ( though i do not think Loach is anti semitic )
.. one of the key parts of anti-semitism is that 'the jews are to blame' .. if they make money they are to blame, if they fight they are to blame, if they are communists they are to blame, if they are bankers they are to blame, the only 'nation' that is not allowed to behave like a nation .. the russian state found a solution for the jews .. in Pacific Siberia, the Nazis found a solution for the jews in the gas chambers .. the jews are to be neither seen nor heard but hey every now and again we'll go kill some
i think that the many people are always looking for reasons to have ago at the jews .. while yes we must protest israels actions until there is a solution that finally puts to bed anti semitism Israel will carry on .. and idiots will accuse IT and the jews of creating there own problems like for centuries before
that the european community never found a safe place for the remainder of the european jewish community after the almost imaginable holocaust still rankles .. the UK stopped emaciated refugees from reaching Palestine, we torpedoed boats with Holocuast survivors for fuck sake, our soldiers bombed jewish political offices etc etc .. and the creation of of home for the jews in palestine was bugnled to unbelievable proportions .. until we can guarantee the jewish community that they no longer face annihaliation as many in Israel clearly believe and due to the history of the last 50 years ( of which yes of courser they have helped create) that is stil a real threat .. and certainly a more real threat than that faced by any other community in europe or close by ( maybe except the roma)
“Until we deal with that, until that is acknowledged, then racism, I’m afraid, will be with us.”
personally i think it is shite absolute shite and fits in entirely with anti semitism ( though i do not think Loach is anti semitic )
.. one of the key parts of anti-semitism is that 'the jews are to blame' .. if they make money they are to blame, if they fight they are to blame, if they are communists they are to blame, if they are bankers they are to blame, the only 'nation' that is not allowed to behave like a nation .. the russian state found a solution for the jews .. in Pacific Siberia, the Nazis found a solution for the jews in the gas chambers .. the jews are to be neither seen nor heard but hey every now and again we'll go kill some
i think that the many people are always looking for reasons to have ago at the jews .. while yes we must protest israels actions until there is a solution that finally puts to bed anti semitism Israel will carry on .. and idiots will accuse IT and the jews of creating there own problems like for centuries before
that the european community never found a safe place for the remainder of the european jewish community after the almost imaginable holocaust still rankles .. the UK stopped emaciated refugees from reaching Palestine, we torpedoed boats with Holocuast survivors for fuck sake, our soldiers bombed jewish political offices etc etc .. and the creation of of home for the jews in palestine was bugnled to unbelievable proportions .. until we can guarantee the jewish community that they no longer face annihaliation as many in Israel clearly believe and due to the history of the last 50 years ( of which yes of courser they have helped create) that is stil a real threat .. and certainly a more real threat than that faced by any other community in europe or close by ( maybe except the roma)
wrong look at his comments above 'self proclaimed' ( wtf does THAT mean!!) 'instigator' .. they are to blame?? it is accusation with no history, no context, no understanding .. he should know better
" ..nothing has been a greater instigator of antisemitism than the self-proclaimed Jewish state itself..." Ken Loach
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
you agree with that? You seemed to be saying before that you didn't
elbows
Well-Known Member
Anti-semitism is way up there on the list of things that make me upset and angry. Ken Loach's comments have not triggered such repulsions for me.
For as far as Im concerned, at the heart of anti-semitism is the fear, mistrust, hate and dehumanisation of others, people who can be labelled 'not us' in some way. Jews have suffered very badly from this, but they dont have a monopoly on being victims. Apologists for Israeli atrocities who seek to use this stuff to deflect from the suffering of others, annoy me as much as anti-semites. You are as bad as them, you are engaging in some of the same thought processes, that just perpetuate the hate.
Genuine understanding of the emotions, suffering, drives, fears and aims of all sides during conflict is to be welcomed. The focus on merely justifying one sides actions and condemning & blaming the other side for all the problems, is not understanding. Now its certainly true that many of Israels critics do not try all that hard to have sympathy with Israel, and this does leave some critics of Israel open to legitimate criticism. But such criticisms do end up seeming like some sort of distractionary sideshow most of the time, for the words of both sides in such arguments are not usually the words which are perpetuating the violence. For example its hard to convince me that any of the anti-semitic violence in Europe would be driven by the words of Ken Loach, as opposed to being driven by existing racist jew-hating beliefs of a minority, military action by Israel, and the ongoing plight of the palestinians.
Jenny Tonge got in big trouble when she expressed an opinion that she could understand why some people became suicide bombers. She may of worded it quite badly, but it was interesting to see that apparently we are not supposed to try to understand the mindset of people, the nature of desperation, instead we are supposed to talk of people as monsters, committing evil acts that are absolutely impossible to understand. What bullshit with transparent motives.
OK it can be tricky, maybe there is only a fine line between claiming to understand something, and being an apologist or supporter of something, but conflict resolution must surely involve making this line clearer, not muddying it for your own aims.
For as far as Im concerned, at the heart of anti-semitism is the fear, mistrust, hate and dehumanisation of others, people who can be labelled 'not us' in some way. Jews have suffered very badly from this, but they dont have a monopoly on being victims. Apologists for Israeli atrocities who seek to use this stuff to deflect from the suffering of others, annoy me as much as anti-semites. You are as bad as them, you are engaging in some of the same thought processes, that just perpetuate the hate.
Genuine understanding of the emotions, suffering, drives, fears and aims of all sides during conflict is to be welcomed. The focus on merely justifying one sides actions and condemning & blaming the other side for all the problems, is not understanding. Now its certainly true that many of Israels critics do not try all that hard to have sympathy with Israel, and this does leave some critics of Israel open to legitimate criticism. But such criticisms do end up seeming like some sort of distractionary sideshow most of the time, for the words of both sides in such arguments are not usually the words which are perpetuating the violence. For example its hard to convince me that any of the anti-semitic violence in Europe would be driven by the words of Ken Loach, as opposed to being driven by existing racist jew-hating beliefs of a minority, military action by Israel, and the ongoing plight of the palestinians.
Jenny Tonge got in big trouble when she expressed an opinion that she could understand why some people became suicide bombers. She may of worded it quite badly, but it was interesting to see that apparently we are not supposed to try to understand the mindset of people, the nature of desperation, instead we are supposed to talk of people as monsters, committing evil acts that are absolutely impossible to understand. What bullshit with transparent motives.
OK it can be tricky, maybe there is only a fine line between claiming to understand something, and being an apologist or supporter of something, but conflict resolution must surely involve making this line clearer, not muddying it for your own aims.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
this x
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
I'd say that this is one of the minor reasons it exists there greater one is the inherant juedophoic line of argument which has historical preceedent.
If it weren't true on any level it wouldn't be a position which would hold any purchase to the argument at all.
Sadly, many juedophoic people do make this conflagration mistake and therefore it is the default reaction to any and all comments which labour udner this mishaprehension....
I agree with your middle comments - as i think everyone else on here does too - so there's no need for me to respond to them.[/QUOTE]
fairy nuff. was merely an outline of my position in different terms to aide understanding of it
I have to admit being at work earlier and relied upon the quote in the intial comment as being a verbatium rather than checking the link but certainly within what's been read of it and the repetition of it i'd still say it's an ementary mistake when making comment on the Is/Pal situation, though i also accept dannys alternate reading of it as being what what probably intended by the comments.
thats Loach, BB
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Yes, I am aware of that. I was trying to get you to state YOUR opinion
this is the key think .. he is NOT saying he understands anti semitism in the context of Israel and Palestine .. he is saying
" ..nothing has been a greater instigator of antisemitism than the self-proclaimed Jewish state itself..."
which is frankly absurd and shows utter ignorence of jewish and anti-semitism history and the holocaust
no of course i don't agree with it .. and it is the classic anti semitic trick .. that anti semitism is created by the jews themselves ... it is ALL their own fault .. if only they had all assimilated etc etc
( oh shite that didn't work in germany did it?? )
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
yes, of course. Anti-semitism does obviously have a long and vile history, which does impact upon any modern discourse.
The Israeli state does also exacerbate that conflation tho
taking something on this issue from Zachor simply on trust??!! Now that is silly
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