Jung visionary or psychologically damaged?

[Shevek]

Last year I read Carl Gustav Jung's autobiography after reading Jung's flying saucers as part of my university dissertation project. I followed that up by reading a few more biographies and Answer to Job. I was deeply affected by Jung's conception of life and spirituality. I had recently had a manic episode and his theories of the unconscious seemed to explain part of my mallady. What I can't quite square now is whether Jung had great insight into the human condition or whether he was just sick? The more I think about it the more I am coming to the conclusion that Jung was ill. I have only had one full blown psychic experience where I encountered a ghost, which unnerved me. But the more I think about that experience the more I am prone to put it down to the fact that my Risperidone (anti-psychotic medications that I take on a regular basis) wasn't at the right level. This is a more general problem I have with spirituality in general. From my own experiences and my experiences as a student of anthropology I am apt to accept the 'real' nature of psychic experiences but the more I ponder on them I am more apt to put them down to pathological causes rather than 'god'. I can't square the idea of 'god' with myself and this is something that was key to Jung's conception of the unconcious. Politically I am an anarchist and for me toomuch spirituality is opaque gobbledegook that just confuses people and can be used to manipulate them. Anyone got any thoughts?

 

[elbows]

Most of the writers who have offered me great insight into the human condition have been sick in some sense. Physical or mental suffering can be a route to understanding, a powerful force that drives them to some end. Free from some of the comforting and powerful self-delusions that may be necessary for the 'normal' person to have a 'normal' life, they may observe the workings of the mind without the normal safety net, processes that are normally kept hidden may emerge and be dwelt upon. If they can describe it in a coherent way, it can enrich our understanding. Granted they usually have some alternative delusions of their own, which will introduce new distortions into their worldview, but at least its different, and if the delusions arent bad enough to mess up their lives of invalidate their work then its not necessarily a problem.

Personally all my natural wonder about spiritual, mystic, psychic possibilities was pretty much extinguished by my early 20's. I see all those things as mental phenomenon which do not exist outside of the mind. But some sort of beliefs in something seems to be necessary to be healthy and find some sense and peace and purpose in life. Those who always doubt, who see too easily how the illusions are performed by their own mind, who struggle to fool themselves in a consistent way, may not get the optimum joy out of lifes journey, but at least they have a rich landscape to explore along the way.

I dont think there is anything wrong with cherrypicking either, the mind is nothing if not full of contradictions, so you can agree with some of his stuff about the unconcious without having to buy into the god element. I suppose it depends if god is really key to his theories, or if he just paints it that way and actually it can be substituted with something else that fits better with what rings true to you. I go learn something about what his theories were now.

 

[Shevek]

Thanks. Like you I am pretty much convinced that most psychic phenonmena are based in the mind. My attitude as an anarchist seems to demand that these mystical occurrences are opened up to scrutiny and analysis and not hedged around with mystery. I am not religious but If I was I would probably be something like a Quaker where there are no priests and everyone is supposedly equal (despite being quite middle class).

 

[panpete]

Psychosis means an overspill from the unconscious, into the conscious.
It can be caused by many things.
It can be an opportunity for the sufferer to expand their consciousness, to become more aware.
Psychosis goes beyond time, space and liniarity (sp?) and although some, who block it out with tranquilisers, or who don't address the root cause, can become more ill, others, like Jung, can have breakthroughs.
This is where the term 'nervous breakthrough' was coined for 'nervous breakdown', as some people who have a psychotic break, can emerge from it, with a fresher, more balanced outlook on life. It can make them stronger.

This is just my view, and something to google from, if it makes sense to the reader.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

What I can't quite square now is whether Jung had great insight into the human condition or whether he was just sick?

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[danny la rouge]

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

But the answer is that he was a mystic, and while fascinating, was a loonspud.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

But the answer is that he was a mystic, and while fascinating, was a loonspud.

Does that mean that everything he said, must be dismissed?

 

[danny la rouge]

Does that mean that everything he said, must be dismissed?

Not everything, no, but nonsense like "synchronicity", yes.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Not everything, no, but nonsense like "synchronicity", yes.

That applies to most people. Listen to the good ideas, toss the nonsense.

 

[danny la rouge]

Actually, I've changed my mind. I can't think of anything useful he said. It's all nonsense.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But the answer is that he was a mystic, and while fascinating, was a loonspud.

I think that "loonspud" is a bit dismissive, given that some of his work, for example on archetypes, was insightful, and as his "mysticism" was rooted in his analysis of myth as a latent factor in collective memory and action.

 

[Shevek]

I like the idea that psychosis can lead to 'nervous breakthrough'. I have bipolar disorder and I have to take anti-psychotics everyday. The reason I had a breakdown/breakthrough last year was because my doctors thought I could safely reduce my Lithium (mood stabiliser drugs) but unfortunately I just had a severe manic episode. Sometimes I wonder whether If I had been left to evolve naturally I might have come through the other side of the psychosis intact but I don't really know

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Actually, I've changed my mind. I can't think of anything useful he said. It's all nonsense.

Are you always this mercurial, tossed like a weathervane in the breeze?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Shevek, I don't have time to elaborate (will return later), but you may find the work of RD Laing helpful, I would particularly recommend - The Divided Self & The Politics of Experience and Bird of Paradise. He argues that mental breakdown can be breakthrough, that our concepts of mental health are ambiguous in a mad society, and that schizophrenics can have some insights. In the latter work he controversially argued that psychosis might have some benefits, and that rather than being surpressed with drugs people could be guided safely through the experience. He also argued that what is regarded as mad when placed in social context could be more intelligible than first perceived.

On Jung, the best short introduction in my opinion is Anthony Storr's book published in Fontana Modern (or possibly Past) Masters series. Storr tends to be impatient of Jung's more obscurantist ideas (which is welcome) and presents a very coherent sketch of the ideas of a writer who is quite sloppy.

 

[Shevek]

On R.D. Laing. I had been on Lithium since the age of 20 due to a hypomanic episode that I suffered after a long depression. I had been relatively stable for 6 years and my medication had been reduced so that I was only taking Lithium (rather than a cocktail of different drugs). I had succesfully graduated from university, moved to Manchester and found a stable relationship. In colloboration with my doctors we agreed that my diagnosis of bipolar disorder was not concrete and that a phased reduction of Lithium would allow me to see whether or not I needed the drugs at all. I hoped that I didn't need the Lithium and that I could live a drug free life. I believed that my 'mental illness' was socially constructed. I had become depressed because of my failure to come to terms with my homosexuality and I had then been 'treated' with a series of different anti-psychotic drugs and anti depressants by a chauvinistic doctor. I believed that I had recovered from the underlying illness and that I would be able to lead a life free of psychiatric drugs.

Unfortunately after about two weeks on the slightly lower dose of Lithium I had a psychotic epsidoe, which was far worse than the hypomanic episode six years earlier. I had all sorts of visions and delusions some of which were quite disturbing. It seems to me that the underlying psychosis has gotten stronger with time and now when the lid is taken off it is uncontrollable. I like Laing's theories (what little I know of them) but I don't know if they would work for me. I would like to believe that I could live a life that was drug free and that there was some meaningful political dimension to my struggle with mental illness but I don't really see how I can act on his ideas.

 

[Demosthenes]

Not everything, no, but nonsense like "synchronicity", yes.

Synchronicity is not nonsense, and I'm sure Jung was right that it's important.

Typically uninformed and ignorant comment, when in fact, since Jung was writing, the science of physics has developed in ways that make synchronicity look like an operating principle for the whole universe.

 

[danny la rouge]

Typically uninformed and ignorant comment

Uniformed other than by the work of his that I've read, you mean?

 

[Random]

in fact, since Jung was writing, the science of physics has developed in ways that make synchronicity look like an operating principle for the whole universe.

wow what an amazing cooincidence

 

[panpete]

Aren't visionary sorts psychologically damaged anyway?

The difference between them, and your normal psych-damaged fuck-up, is that the visionary has sought out the cause of, and repaired the damage, gaining wisdom beyond that or normal consciousness.

 

[Random]

The difference between them, and your normal psych-damaged fuck-up, is that the visionary has sought out the cause of, and repaired the damage, gaining wisdom beyond that or normal consciousness.

I don't think saint joan ever managed that one

 

[danny la rouge]

wow what an amazing cooincidence

Meaningful, even.

I wonder, though, Demosthenes, can you elaborate on what you've said? Are you implying that developments in physics can be made sense of in the light of Jung's notion of synchronicity, or are you implying that developments in physics make sense of synchronicity?

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Memories, Dreams and Reflections to hand now, but I have one at home and can check later, but if memory serves me right, one of the first examples of what Jung terms 'genuine synchronicity' given in that book is an incident when he woke during the night with a sharp pain in the back on his head, and later finds that during the night a patient had committed suicide by shooting himself in the head.

Is it your contention that an event such as this makes sense of - what? string theory? quantum physics? Or is it your contention that evnts such as this are explained by quantum physics etc?

If the latter, then I'm afraid I find the simple explanation of coincidence, followed by meaning being given to that coincidence by Jung, convincing enough to save me the trouble of trying to weld quantum physics onto it.

In brief: during my life I have on many occasions woken with a headache. I'm sure you have. People also commit suicide by shooting themselves in the head. It is therefore probable that at some time someone somewhere in the world will thus awake with a headache on the same night as an acquaintance shoots themselves in the head.

Yesterday I thought of my sister, and shortly afterwards she phoned me. To know how probable this is you need to now that I don't very often speak to this sister on the phone. It may have been several months. But you also realise that Christmas approaches, and she was arranging a time to bring presents for my kids before we go down south to my mother-in-law's for Christmas this weekend. And I was thinking of her because I was wondering if she would, and thinking she only has a couple of days to do so. So it's looking less and less coincidental.

As well as the hits, we need to count the misses: I've thought of several people today. None of them has phoned me. Before I began typing this, I thought of a friend who lives in Boston. I will inform you if he calls in the next 24 hours. So, yes, I have had those times when someone I was thinking of has phoned, but far, far more often, they don't. Just as my night-time headaches so far have not coincided with suicides.

I find people like Jung dangerous: they may have some insights, but they also lead their followers away from sense into nonsense and new age sludge.

 

[Demosthenes]

Meaningful, even.

I wonder, though, Demosthenes, can you elaborate on what you've said? Are you implying that developments in physics can be made sense of in the light of Jung's notion of synchronicity, or are you implying that developments in physics make sense of synchronicity?

Developments in physics make sense of synchronicity.

There's plenty on this site already about bell's theorem, and experimental proofs that it has real effects.

Bell's theorem basically shows that given certain generally accepted assumptions within quantum physics, it can be mathematically proved that any two "particles" that have previously interacted will continue to influence each other at any distance, for ever.

I've also read that it implies backwards in time causation as well.

But Bell's theorem is just a mathematical demonstration, and given how prima facie unlikely it is, most physicists wrote it off as "an accident of the formalism" : The idea here is a bit like the copenhagen idea for disposing of the schrodinger's cat problem. You say, although the cat is both dead and alive in the mathematical formalism, there are no cats in the experimental world who will be found in this confused state.

However it turns out by experimentation that in the experimental world, the counter-intuitive results predicted by bell's theorem do occur.

This has been described by some physicist, David Bohm, I think, as being as remarkable as if there were a pair of people in geneva and mexico city, each with a pair of red and blue socks, and whenever one of them changes into his blue socks, the other changes into his red socks and vice versa.

As far as synchronicity is concerned. Here's one I made earlier. A few weeks back, I had a dream about someone, and then I was thinking about her later in the day, and then I had to head down the road to the centre of town to drop back a dvd someone had lent me, and as it happened I bumped into this woman, when I hadn't seen her for about four months. However, it's not that rare that I think of her, and usually I don't bump into her, so perhaps that's not that remarkable... What is remarkable is the next bit.: On returning home, for some reason, this event made me think of someone else, a guy who this woman introduced me to ten years ago, and we'd been in touch on facebook a while ago, and I had his number, and he'd said to give him a call some time, - so I did. And it turned out that when I called him, he'd come down to brighton for the night to stay at the house of this woman. And the moment I called him was according to him, literally the moment he parked up in Brighton. That was the first time I've called him in several years.

eta. did you post your post at 2.35 on purpose. ?

 

[danny la rouge]

There's plenty on this site already about bell's theorem, and experimental proofs that it has real effects.

Yes, I'm aware of Bell's theorem. It does, though, like much of quantum physics, apply only to the very very small. As I understand it the physics of the large and the physics of the very very small have still not had a meeting of minds, although much brain power on acquainting them with each other.

On the coincidence of your friend:

On returning home, for some reason, this event made me think of someone else, a guy who this woman introduced me to ten years ago, and we'd been in touch on facebook a while ago, and I had his number, and he'd said to give him a call some time, - so I did.

The reason you thought of him, I suggest, is that he was introduced to you by the woman you'd just bumped into. You and he had been in the process of getting back in touch, and he was brought back to mind by your meeting her. In fact, you'd both been thinking of each other and planning to meet. I don't find it at all unlikely that the outcome is that he actually does visit. So, while that would lead to smiles all round and "Wows" etc, I'm afraid it isn't really very spooky at all. In my opinion.

 

[danny la rouge]

eta. did you post your post at 2.35 on purpose. ?

I posted on purpose. It was at 2.35.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It would be extraordinary if coincidences never happened. The odds are stacked against it.

 

[danny la rouge]

It would be extraordinary if coincidences never happened. The odds are stacked against it.

Indeed.

 

[Demosthenes]

Yes, I'm aware of Bell's theorem. It does, though, like much of quantum physics, apply only to the very very small. As I understand it the physics of the large and the physics of the very very small have still not had a meeting of minds, although much brain power on acquainting them with each other.

Well everything that is very large is made out the very very small. So if Bell's theorem applies to the very very small, then it applies to everything.

Besides which according to the generally accepted physical account of the beginning of the universe, all the particles in the universe were once in the same place, and interacted, which means that they all continue to affect and influence each other as if they were connected, for ever.


On the coincidence of your friend:

The reason you thought of him, I suggest, is that he was introduced to you by the woman you'd just bumped into. You and he had been in the process of getting back in touch, and he was brought back to mind by your meeting her. In fact, you'd both been thinking of each other and planning to meet. I don't find it at all unlikely that the outcome is that he actually does visit. So, while that would lead to smiles all round and "Wows" etc, I'm afraid it isn't really very spooky at all. In my opinion.

- ffs, I called him literally as he parked up in brighton. It's kind of like, supposing me and you had had a conversation on some long-forgotten thread, hadn't talked about it for ages, and then we both go back to the thread, and post simultaneously. If again, you'd try and rationalise something like that, well, obviously you'd rationalise anything.

Obviously the reason I thought of him was because he was introduced by the woman I coincidentally bumped into, who was in my dream the previous night. But I only saw her because I had to go down the road at a particular time to return a dvd called immortal, but, the odds start stacking up against it.

 

[danny la rouge]

Well everything that is very large is made out the very very small. So if Bell's theorem applies to the very very small, then it applies to everything.

Well done, you've come up with the Theory of Everything. Just the detail to work out now. Detail Einstein wasted the last years of his life on, and which he never resolved. Good luck.

What is your point about the coincidence with your friend? It was a coincidence. They happen. I know when it happens to you it can be a "wow" moment, but it's just probability. It'd be stranger if they never happened.

 

[ViolentPanda]

wow what an amazing cooincidence

 

[Demosthenes]

It's not a wow moment to me at all. Things like that happen to me all the time, - but only because I actively follow them up, because I know they're significant.

I dreamed of charlotte, I coincidentallly bumped into her for the first time in several months. There didn't seem to be much point in that, as we're not even on good terms at the mo. So wondering why it would be that I had this presentiment as I went down the road that I'd bump into charlotte, and what the point of all that was, I eventually decided to call Simon, who it turned out had just arrived in Brighton. Probably I wouldn't have met up with him, if it wasn't for him being quite bemused and intrigued that I happened to have called him literally as he parked up in brighton, for the first time in several years.