Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[belboid]

It will be, as well you know, impossible. It's a joke of a position.

I know no such thing. Make your argument, not just a statement.

 

[Pickman's model]

Labour policy is made by conference. Tho JM is, obviously, a very influential figure within that. And, yes, he is backtracking on previous statements about capital controls, so we'll have to push him to hold him to his earlier thoughts.

soz do you have in mind the comments in labour briefing in october 2012, reported thus in the express in 2017?

 

[belboid]

soz do you have in mind the comments in labour briefing in october 2012, reported thus in the express in 2017?
View attachment 161303

he made loads of such comments before he was shadow chancellor. This piece is about their 'war-gaming' from just over a year ago, which is more relevant
The return of capital controls - MoneyWeek

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I know no such thing. Make your argument, not just a statement.

My argument is that access to the EU common market requires the adoption of neo-liberal orthodoxy. Attempts to step outside of it are punished - see Greece and now Italy - in the severest terms by the ECB, IMF and EU. Attempts to negotiate a derogation are pointless as the entire project is based upon the orthodoxy.

 

[Pickman's model]

he made loads of such comments before he was shadow chancellor. This piece is about their 'war-gaming' from just over a year ago, which is more relevant
The return of capital controls - MoneyWeek

that ^ from 9/12/17. this v from 16/11/17

McDonnell says big business sees Labour as government in waiting

 

[belboid]

that ^ from 9/12/17. this v from 16/11/17
View attachment 161305
McDonnell says big business sees Labour as government in waiting

The circled bit is just bollocks though, isn't it? While I can see why he has to say there won't be a run on the pound, it's also true Labour has been preparing for one. A tad contradictory.

 

[Mr Moose]

The Labour MP's that are facing these challenges are Blairites, the right wing of the labour party. As the party membership has changed to be more aligned with Corbyn they are targeting MP's that have done (and still are) everything in their power to oppose him. That and her politics are utter shite.

Yes, but then say that and evidence it. Don’t just write a pitiful motion that she doesn’t like Jeremy.

 

[Pickman's model]

he made loads of such comments before he was shadow chancellor. This piece is about their 'war-gaming' from just over a year ago, which is more relevant
The return of capital controls - MoneyWeek

i can't find anything about the labour party war-gaming capital controls. there's this from 26/9/17



pls show some actual evidence that they war-gamed capital controls, because it's just not been reported.

 

[zahir]

The endgame of neo-liberalism is globalisation or democracy – and John McDonnell is not on the side of democracy. The consequence is that ‘if liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals will not do’

Should I take it from this that the IWCA want more border controls?

 

[belboid]

My argument is that access to the EU common market requires the adoption of neo-liberal orthodoxy. Attempts to step outside of it are punished - see Greece and now Italy - in the severest terms by the ECB, IMF and EU. Attempts to negotiate a derogation are pointless as the entire project is based upon the orthodoxy.

I largely agree. But we are in a different position to Greece & Italy, because we are (supposedly) leaving. 'Remain and reform' wouldn't work, but leaving has opened up many cracks in the edifice that could be exploited.

The question should be - Their plan probably won't work what do Labour do if/when the EU refuses to make any concessions? The article simply assumes complete capitulation (or that Labour don't really want to leave and are just stringing us along). This is where we need the alternative strategy - a strategy, not just a critique. One that will play on the existing tensions within the EU and use them to threaten their hegemony.

Still waiting to hear what border controls you want.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I largely agree. But we are in a different position to Greece & Italy, because we are (supposedly) leaving. 'Remain and reform' wouldn't work, but leaving has opened up many cracks in the edifice that could be exploited.

The question should be - Their plan probably won't work what do Labour do if/when the EU refuses to make any concessions? The article simply assumes complete capitulation (or that Labour don't really want to leave and are just stringing us along). This is where we need the alternative strategy - a strategy, not just a critique. One that will play on the existing tensions within the EU and use them to threaten their hegemony.

Still waiting to hear what border controls you want.

On both issues the starting point - in my opinion - is Polanyi's concept of the double movement. On this reading the countermovement is a response to the neo-liberal commodification of labour, land and money, while the actual movement is contingent on several locally determined factors. The common arguments of both sides in the debate mirrors the double movement. The leave campaign emphasised protectionist ideas while associating 'freedom of movement' to a deterioration in public services and the slow motion collapse of the labour market. On the other hand, the remain campaign aligned itself with international organisations such as the IMF and the OECD, and argued that voting to leave the EU would damage the economy. This is where the left needs to start from.

 

[chilango]

it's ok to offer criticism without proposing an alternative isn't it?

Indeed.

No point giving answers until you've figured out what the question is.

 

[chilango]

Should I take it from this that the IWCA want more border controls?

I'm taking from not that the IWCA want border controls (I don't know if they do or not tbf) but that there is there is an audience within the class for the arguments being made by the populist right about the benefits of border controls. Therefore we need to engage with this audience and address these concerns. Not just cede the platform to the right on this.

 

[belboid]

On both issues the starting point - in my opinion - is Polanyi's concept of the double movement. On this reading the countermovement is a response to the neo-liberal commodification of labour, land and money, while the actual movement is contingent on several locally determined factors. The common arguments of both sides in the debate mirrors the double movement. The leave campaign emphasised protectionist ideas while associating 'freedom of movement' to a deterioration in public services and the slow motion collapse of the labour market. On the other hand, the remain campaign aligned itself with international organisations such as the IMF and the OECD, and argued that voting to leave the EU would damage the economy. This is where the left needs to start from.

And the practical consequences of this are....the article seems to come down on the side of protectionism

 

[hash tag]

Slipping in the current climate is not good Jeremy Corbyn slides in approval ratings in spite of Tory schisms

 

[butchersapron]

Slipping in the current climate is not good Jeremy Corbyn slides in approval ratings in spite of Tory schisms

Thanks for the link to a two month old up to date poll. In line with all your other contributions.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

And the practical consequences of this are....the article seems to come down on the side of protectionism

It doesn't. Read it again.

 

[Teaboy]

Yes, but then say that and evidence it. Don’t just write a pitiful motion that she doesn’t like Jeremy.

Well the guy who has proposed it appears to be a cunt. Anyway, its been withdrawn now.

 

[belboid]

Indeed.

No point giving answers until you've figured out what the question is.

The article is about the terms upon which the UK is to leave the EU. That is the question, we may not have come up with it, but it is the one being faced, and the one the article is on about.

But by only dealing with one side of the argument - that any form of customs union requires an acceptance of the 'four freedoms' and is, thus, neo-liberal - it implies that there is another that avoids being neo-liberal. But what it actually says - in the opening paragraph - is about the need to 'defend borders'. It immediately equates capitalist globalisation with border controls, and nothing else. Hardly surprising various people have read it as them supporting those very controls. It's a protectionist view, that ignores any kind of internationalism.

 

[belboid]

It doesn't. Read it again.

See previous post

 

[Shechemite]

Well the guy who has proposed it appears to be a cunt. Anyway, its been withdrawn now.

And Watson has written to Formby requesting the CLP is suspended.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

See previous post

The article flags the wider political context and the likely dead ends of mindless 'no borders' arguments. There is no protectionist call.

 

[Pickman's model]

Slipping in the current climate is not good Jeremy Corbyn slides in approval ratings in spite of Tory schisms

Why didn't you go with
Labour slumps in polls as Tories open biggest lead since general election which has the advantage of being six days auld as opposed to more than six weeks past its use-by

 

[belboid]

The article flags the wider political context and the likely dead ends of mindless 'no borders' arguments. There is no protectionist call.

No, as I said, there is no explicit call for anything. It's all implication. Why else is the point about 'defending borders' put right up front?

If X is bad, there must be a Y that is good. So what is it? There's only one possible Y mentioned. Or, if Y doesn't exist, maybe X is the best there is.

Casual critiques may be more or less interesting, but they're not worth much without any indication of a better alternative, and they're certainly not 'important'

 

[Shechemite]

Why didn't you go with
Labour slumps in polls as Tories open biggest lead since general election which has the advantage of being six days auld as opposed to more than six weeks past its use-by

Or this one Corbyn's satisfaction ratings slump to lowest ever level | Daily Mail Online

 

[Mr Moose]

Why didn't you go with
Labour slumps in polls as Tories open biggest lead since general election which has the advantage of being six days auld as opposed to more than six weeks past its use-by

There is something quite underwhelming in the statistic that only 25% of those polled think Jezza is ‘decisive’ down from 31%.

 

[Mr Moose]

Has it all gone downhill since Dianne called it ‘neck and neck’ in the face of bully girls Fiona and Isabel on QT. She was of course quite correct on that occasion.

 

[Pickman's model]

There is something quite underwhelming in the statistic that only 25% of those polled think Jezza is ‘decisive’ down from 31%.

There is only one poll that matters and no one yet knows when it will be held

 

[Mr Moose]

There is only one poll that matters and no one yet knows when it will be held

Yep. Unless Theresa does already.

 

[billbond]

Voters FURIOUS At How Much Corbyn And Abbott Have Claimed In Expenses