Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[chilango]

For about 3 years from 1999-2002 ish I was someone's boss, and I haven't been anyone's boss since then by choice, when I realised I didn't ever want to be responsible for sacking someone (that kinda limits your ability as a manager of people). For those few years in London, I was uncomfortable every day with the middle class people I had to work with, mix with, the accents I had to listen to, the backgrounds I had to feel intimidated by, because I know I am not like them and never will be.

So if that brief sojourn into line management is what makes me m/c then fine, I'll concede. Although as I look around my life today, this wondrous middle class life of mine, I do wonder if it's too late to get my money back.

It made you m/c for that period. You have that lived experience. You referred to it to support a
point you were making in argument.

That's all.

Anyway, I've no real interest in this just being about you. For me, it was just a starting point into a potentially interesting diversion into how privilege is acquired, or not, and the role education plays in that.

I guess that's my academic area of interest, so was enjoying reading the spat tbh.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But isn't the Norway+ idea predicated on getting permission from the other EEA members, who have said get to fucky?

They haven't even started negotiating for such a thing yet, so too early to say. It would require changing from May's 'red lines', and changing from May. Every possible outcome involves that. Not saying it will happen, merely that we can't say with confidence that it won't.

 

[Serge Forward]

I was someone's boss once. That irrevocably and permanently changes my class identity and social status does it?

I think we need more self-identified working class people in positions of influence, rather than fewer. Self-flaggalation is not a good look. And no temporary job contract is going to change who I am and where I am from.

Class is not a fucking identity. It's a social and economic relationship.

 

[Pickman's model]

I was someone's boss once. That irrevocably and permanently changes my class identity and social status does it?

I think we need more self-identified working class people in positions of influence, rather than fewer. Self-flaggalation is not a good look. And no temporary job contract is going to change who I am and where I am from.

self-flagellation: another blind spot i see

 

[belboid]

they said no to temporary membership.

And they'd say no to permanent membership for the same reasons. There is no advantage to them allowing the UK into their bloc, so why would they? Unless there were significant financial incentives, which are unlikely (almost impossible under May, just about possible under Corbyn, I suppose)

 

[belboid]

Class is not a fucking identity. It's a social and economic relationship.

There's no such thing as 'middle-class' though, in social and economic relationship terms. That is an identity.

 

[Pickman's model]

And they'd say no to permanent membership for the same reasons. There is no advantage to them allowing the UK into their bloc, so why would they? Unless there were significant financial incentives, which are unlikely (almost impossible under May, just about possible under Corbyn, I suppose)

there'd be i think the same fishing issues which departure from the eu was said to resolve.

 

[killer b]

looks like it's no deal then. ah well.

 

[Serge Forward]

There's no such thing as 'middle-class' though, in social and economic relationship terms. That is an identity.

True.

 

[belboid]

there'd be i think the same fishing issues which departure from the eu was said to resolve.

EEA doesn't cover fisheries (I read). Norway has tariff free trade in white fish, but pays tariffs for others.

 

[teuchter]

There's no such thing as 'middle-class' though, in social and economic relationship terms. That is an identity.

I'm confused now.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

looks like it's no deal then. ah well.

Nah. The idea that no deal could somehow happen by accident is a big lie. It is entirely within the power of the govt to call parliament together and ask for a revocation of A50, a bill that would surely pass if the final day were reached without agreement.

 

[Pickman's model]

EEA doesn't cover fisheries (I read). Norway has tariff free trade in white fish, but pays tariffs for others.

can we say efta when we mean efta and eea when we mean the european economic area pls.

 

[killer b]

Nah. The idea that no deal could somehow happen by accident is a big lie. It is entirely within the power of the govt to call parliament together and ask for a revocation of A50, a bill that would surely pass if the final day were reached without agreement.

It is within the power of the govt to commit political suicide, yes.

 

[Pickman's model]

It is within the power of the govt to commit political suicide, yes.

if the government hasn't already committed political suicide it is only because we haven't yet reached 30 march.

 

[belboid]

can we say efta when we mean efta and eea when we mean the european economic area pls.

If I talk about EFTA, I will. I'm not doing, though

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It is within the power of the govt to commit political suicide, yes.

No deal is political suicide. We'll have to agree to differ on this one, I think. I think they would have absolutely no choice but to revoke A50 in such a situation, while you think they might just crash.

 

[danny la rouge]

There's no such thing as 'middle-class' though, in social and economic relationship terms.

I’d disagree: the middle class are those who play the role of supervisor under real subsumption of labour.

 

[killer b]

No deal is political suicide. We'll have to agree to differ on this one, I think. I think they would have absolutely no choice but to revoke A50 in such a situation, while you think they might just crash.

I think some kind of solution will be found before then, but of those two scenarios I think it's more likely we'll crash out with no deal than some last minute A50 revocation.

 

[kebabking]

No deal is political suicide. We'll have to agree to differ on this one, I think. I think they would have absolutely no choice but to revoke A50 in such a situation, while you think they might just crash.

no deal would be difficult, but not political suicide - revoking A50 would be political suicide for a tory PM.

the reverse of course is true for Labour.

 

[Pickman's model]

If I talk about EFTA, I will. I'm not doing, though

so who is their bloc in your 19858? sounds to me like you mean efta.

 

[belboid]

I’d disagree: the middle class are those who play the role of supervisor under real subsumption of labour.

I'm not sure you mean subsumption, but, either way.....

That is a semi traditional way of using the term (along with anyone on an income higher than XX, usually the notional average wage), but in an age where so may have some supervisory responsibilities, I'm not sure how useful that is. For those whose role is solely supervisory, maybe, but there aren't many of those roles these days.

 

[belboid]

i am at a loss then to understand why you thought utter irrelevancies would advance the discussion

you're right, I should just have ignored you.

 

[Pickman's model]

you're right, I should just have ignored you.

i edited

so who is their bloc in your 19858? sounds to me like you mean efta.

 

[andysays]

Nah. The idea that no deal could somehow happen by accident is a big lie. It is entirely within the power of the govt to call parliament together and ask for a revocation of A50, a bill that would surely pass if the final day were reached without agreement.

It's also within the power of the government not to revoke A50, and the current government have said repeatedly that they don't intend to do so.

That may be bollocks, or the current government may fall and be replaced by another, but it certainly isn't impossible that in the event of the necessary steps for an agreement not being completed by Brexit day, A50 isn't revoked and the UK leaves without a deal.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm not sure you mean subsumption, but, either way.....

That is a semi traditional way of using the term (along with anyone on an income higher than XX, usually the notional average wage), but in an age where so may have some supervisory responsibilities, I'm not sure how useful that is. For those whose role is solely supervisory, maybe, but there aren't many of those roles these days.

I do mean subsumption. I discussed it more fully here: https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/are-these-people-middle-class.346881/page-5#post-14676967

 

[brogdale]

May needs to bring the vote if for no other reason then to get this thread back on track.

 

[philosophical]

So. Is Brexit actually going to happen?

It's an interesting question.

The word was leave. But there is a common travel area with the EU.
This has not been sorted yet, there are less than a hundred days to go, so whilst there is a common travel area with the EU, then the UK won't be leaving.

 

[Pickman's model]

The word was leave. But there is a common travel area with the EU.
This has not been sorted yet, there are less than a hundred days to go, so whilst there is a common travel area with the EU, then the UK won't be leaving.

indeed, as noted in parliament there are fewer than ninety days to go

 

[SpookyFrank]

Avoiding political suicide is way back in the other direction. All May has now is a choice between head in the oven or toaster in the bathtub.