Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[HoratioCuthbert]

in vino veritas

So they say, I’m not sure though!

 

[alex_]

I'm not sure people inside their liberal bubble appreciate the extent to which many see a second ref as a challenge to democracy itself. People used to laugh when the Irish did this - keep voting until the political establishment got the right answer. In this thread it's gliby bandied about like a sensible, almost inevitable, course of action. Liberals in action. Esp. te BBC.

There won't be just anger if this were to be proposed, the non-metropolitan *country* will be outraged. If you put together the scale of the Iraqi war protest, the outrage of the poll tax and the determination of the miners strike - I have a strong sense that is what would come to London, and not to march but to occupy: a principled stand against the manipulation of democratic process. It's difficult to understand how people think you just override a national vote ... because politicians on both sides told fibs.

Even though metropolitan, educated liberals do truly sincerely know whats best for everyone, you really can't glibly fuck around with this stuff.

“There could be unstoppable demand for a re-run of the EU referendum if Remain wins by a narrow margin on 23 June, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said.”

Farage raises second referendum prospect

Hypocrites, much ?

Alex

 

[The Fornicator]

LOL. A Nigel Farage quote. We need more of those.

 

[gosub]

All the future options the UK now faces are chite options, including remain.
It is probably true that another national vote is the best of the worst, but it is still a crap option which will further divide.

Disagree. Best of the worst is the backbenches of UK Parliament assert themselves. Another National vote raises questions about the point of our political classes or "elite" as they have been styling themselves in recent years

 

[philosophical]

Disagree. Best of the worst is the backbenches of UK Parliament assert themselves. Another National vote raises questions about the point of our political classes or "elite" as they have been styling themselves in recent years

I take your point.
If one driver for brexit voters was about national sovereignty, then you would think they might be cool with the 'sovereign' Parliament getting a grip on the situation, including much more assertive backbenchers.
However if the outcome was remain division will still be around writ large with loads banging on about 'democracy' and a 'democratic deficit' and probably nutty accusations about traitors and betrayal mixed in.
However Parliament getting a grip would indeed be the least worst, so I agree with you. I wrote that another vote would be the best of the worst because the signs are that the manky Politicians the UK currently have couldn't get a grip on this situation even with the help of superglue.

 

[gosub]

I take your point.
If one driver for brexit voters was about national sovereignty, then you would think they might be cool with the 'sovereign' Parliament getting a grip on the situation, including much more assertive backbenchers.
However if the outcome was remain division will still be around writ large with loads banging on about 'democracy' and a 'democratic deficit' and probably nutty accusations about traitors and betrayal mixed in.
However Parliament getting a grip would indeed be the least worst, so I agree with you. I wrote that another vote would be the best of the worst because the signs are that the manky Politicians the UK currently have couldn't get a grip on this situation even with the help of superglue.

I'd be more than cool with it if it didn't cause its own headaches....Tory side not hard to go do your own thing - there is an utter disconnect between the membership and party policy, and from the scrutiny you could say even from collective cabinet responsibility, May's deal has top down-ism all over it. Problem is more Labour. I don't think Corbyn ever had eyes on Number 10 (and if he got it would be rather similar to Blair/Brown with John McDonnell coveting his next door neighbour's residence). More I think what Corbyn wanted to do, and in a certain extent has achieved, is give more say in the running of his party to his party membership....Only the wider party already effectively committed to 2nd referendumy remaining....Which I don't think 1 there is enough time for, and 2 is rather cynical.
I end up hoping that the likes of Yvette Cooper et al who, while extremely competent MP's, don't really fit with what has changed within the party under Corbyn. I end up hoping its the likes of them who party Country ahead of party and bash something sensible together...but there's mess that way too.

But think it is definitely fair to say there is more talent on the back benches these days than the here today gone tomorrow front benches of all the political parties.

 

[gosub]

Fintan O’Toole: Never Mind the Bollocks, Here’s Brexit

 

[alex_]

LOL. A Nigel Farage quote. We need more of those.

You are the one who has allied yourself to him.

Alex

 

[gosub]

You are the one who has allied yourself to him.

Alex

Excellent, where do we send YOUR indictment for war crimes?


Grow up

 

[Wookey]

Fintan O’Toole: Never Mind the Bollocks, Here’s Brexit

"Why do people cut themselves? Obviously, because they are unhappy, frustrated, angry. They feel that no one cares about them, no one listens to them. But it still seems hard to understand the attractions of inflicting pain on yourself. Three things seem to make cutting addictive. One is that it gives the pain you feel a name and a location. It becomes tangible and visible – it has an immediate focus that is somehow more tolerable than the larger, deeper distress. The second is that it provides the illusion of control. You choose to do it – you are taking an action and producing a result. It is a kind of power, even if the only one you can exercise that power over is yourself and even if the only thing you can do to yourself is damage. And the third is that it can seem in an unhappy mind like an act of love.

You can hurt yourself for someone or something. “So,” sings the great balladeer of English self-pity Morrissey, “scratch my name on your arm with a fountain pen. This means you really love me.” For some, marking Leave on the ballot paper in June 2016 was a way of scratching the name of England on their arms to prove their love."

That is amazing. Properly describes a lot of what I've been thinking of the emotional reasoning behind many people's Brexit vote.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Even by the standards of The Guardian this is a new low. Not only are leave voters racists, now they are also complicit and active players in the operation of the precarious neoliberal economy.

It’s hard to know where to begin with this crap:

Let’s be honest about what’s really driving Brexit: bigotry | Matthew d’Ancona

 

[The Fornicator]

Holy smoke, The Guardian really knows its market. It's like the clickbait of Stock, Aitkin and Waterman.

 

[William of Walworth]

Even by the standards of The Guardian this is a new low. Not only are leave voters racists, now they are also complicit and active players in the operation of the precarious neoliberal economy.

It’s hard to know where to begin with this crap:

Let’s be honest about what’s really driving Brexit: bigotry | Matthew d’Ancona

I've just read this properly. Worth the effort, despite how much we'll agree that it contains plenty of shit points.

More later etc., but not everything in it is to be dismissed IMO.

(Plus it's only d'Ancona. He's always been a fucking Tory, but however Remainiac the Guardian is, he's not the only writer in that paper)

 

[The Fornicator]

I'm confused; what is it today bigotry or Morrissey style self harm. Is it bigoted self-harm?

Is there a Nigel Farage quote than can guide us ..

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

So what’s the Cleverest Man in the Room, the factmonger, the man who has ex Brexit voters crying at his feet, THE MAN OF THE HOUR James O’Brien saying the day?

Oh

 

[gosub]

Even by the standards of The Guardian this is a new low. Not only are leave voters racists, now they are also complicit and active players in the operation of the precarious neoliberal economy.

It’s hard to know where to begin with this crap:

Let’s be honest about what’s really driving Brexit: bigotry | Matthew d’Ancona

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Even by the standards of The Guardian this is a new low. Not only are leave voters racists, now they are also complicit and active players in the operation of the precarious neoliberal economy.

It’s hard to know where to begin with this crap:

Let’s be honest about what’s really driving Brexit: bigotry | Matthew d’Ancona

Don’t begin man it’s not worth it. Save yourself!

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I've just read this properly. Worth the effort, despite how much we'll agree that it contains plenty of shit points.

More later etc., but not everything in it is to be dismissed IMO.

(Plus it's only d'Ancona. He's always been a fucking Tory, but however Remainiac the Guardian is, he's not the only writer in that paper)

Why the fuck are you drum rolling us to fuck like we are supposed to wait on tenterhooks for you to unveil the secrets hidden in an article by Tory cunt D’Acona? If you have said then and there what points we should be taking note of fine, but don’t drum roll a Tory bastard have some shame William.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

"Why do people cut themselves? Obviously, because they are unhappy, frustrated, angry. They feel that no one cares about them, no one listens to them. But it still seems hard to understand the attractions of inflicting pain on yourself. Three things seem to make cutting addictive. One is that it gives the pain you feel a name and a location. It becomes tangible and visible – it has an immediate focus that is somehow more tolerable than the larger, deeper distress. The second is that it provides the illusion of control. You choose to do it – you are taking an action and producing a result. It is a kind of power, even if the only one you can exercise that power over is yourself and even if the only thing you can do to yourself is damage. And the third is that it can seem in an unhappy mind like an act of love.

You can hurt yourself for someone or something. “So,” sings the great balladeer of English self-pity Morrissey, “scratch my name on your arm with a fountain pen. This means you really love me.” For some, marking Leave on the ballot paper in June 2016 was a way of scratching the name of England on their arms to prove their love."

That is amazing. Properly describes a lot of what I've been thinking of the emotional reasoning behind many people's Brexit vote.

Oh my GOD this thread is eating itself.
Comrades let’s depart on my hidden ship, save yourselves, for the bigger fight lies ahead of us.

 

[Balbi]

Even by the standards of The Guardian this is a new low. Not only are leave voters racists, now they are also complicit and active players in the operation of the precarious neoliberal economy.

It’s hard to know where to begin with this crap:

Let’s be honest about what’s really driving Brexit: bigotry | Matthew d’Ancona

Beneath all the talk of “control” and “global Britain”, there is the germ of an extremely unpleasant nativism. Again, we pesky centrists are told to be quiet and to heed the concerns of those who have been “left behind”. But since there is not a shred of respectable evidence that immigration has had more than a marginal impact upon public service capacity, wage levels or net welfare costs, I am forced to conclude that there is now a sufficiency of Britons who just don’t much like people of foreign extraction, and certainly don’t want many more of them around the place.

This bit is incredible, given that it was the centrist cunts in Labour and the Tories who banged on and on about 'legitimate concerns' on immigration and the forgotten people of the country in their shithouse way of trying to fight UKIP by becoming aligned to UKIP ideas and language.

Sensible centrists are never to blame for the *checks notes* results of their own actions over the last decade or so.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

You are the one who has allied yourself to him.

Alex

And Alex you are just boring. Even philosopher seems to be amending his craic slightly so he doesn’t sound like a weird Irish Border Dalek or something.

 

[The Fornicator]

There's like this media Brexit industry now which 2nd rate *writers' earn a decent whack with specific, play-to-the-gallery posturing. Owen Jones is clearly the poo-faced king pin but there are dozens of them at it. Money for old rope, tbf.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

There's like this media Brexit industry now which 2nd rate *writers' earn a decent whack with specific, play-to-the-gallery posturing. Owen Jones is clearly the poo-faced king pin but there are dozens of them at it. Money for old rope, tbf.

Poo- faced Tell me that’s not a typo!

 

[The Fornicator]

Phonetically it's poe. But poo works better.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Phonetically it's poe. But poo works better.

Ah! But then a well timed typo is also good, as if gifted to us by the gods of vocabulary.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There's like this media Brexit industry now which 2nd rate *writers' earn a decent whack with specific, play-to-the-gallery posturing. Owen Jones is clearly the poo-faced king pin but there are dozens of them at it. Money for old rope, tbf.

Fintan O'Toole may be many things, but second-rate writer is not one of them. Here he is back in February laying out exactly the problem that has led to exactly this deal from May, and that had to lead to this deal.

Sometimes an outside voice is needed, and I think this is one of those instances. When he says this

the driving force in Brexit is a specifically English nationalism for which the rest of the UK is ultimately dispensible.

I think he is very right.

He pours scorn on the leading brexiters, Johnson, Davis and Gove, for the intellectual bankruptcy of their positions. And he does so with suitable anger.

 

[The Fornicator]

Have you seen Andalucia tonight, seen central Paris on fire today, 5 star in Italy, Orban, Merkel being forced to set a date for stepping down, etc - and the centre left still thinks it all about bigoted little Ingerlanders little Gillian Duffy, like it's still 2010. There is now shelf load of academic analysis. Recognise a snake oil salesman FFS.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Have you seen Andalucia tonight, seen central Paris on fire today, 5 star in Italy, Orban, Merkel being forced to set a date for stepping down, etc - and the centre left still thinks it all about bigoted little Ingerlanders little Gillian Duffy, like it's still 2010. There is now shelf load of academic analysis. Recognise a snake oil salesman FFS.

Recognise the snake oil salesman, yes. And recognise when people get stuff right, such as those like Fintan O'Toole who have been speaking of the Northern Ireland problem since before the referendum. And yes, the likes of Johnson, Gove and Davis are bigoted Little Englanders, whose currency is lies. That needs saying as often as possible.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Recognise the snake oil salesman, yes. And recognise when people get stuff right, such as those like Fintan O'Toole who have been speaking of the Northern Ireland problem since before the referendum. And yes, the likes of Johnson, Gove and Davis are bigoted Little Englanders, whose currency is lies. That needs saying as often as possible.

Comparing voting to leave the EU to self mutilation is just fucking obscene. So everytime a company closes a factory in the U.K. or the govt cuts funds to vital services or whatever in the next few years you and Fintan O’Toole are gonna be saying “self mutilation.” That’s like saying a woman that gets beaten up cause she tried to leave her husband brought it on herself, since you guys are so fond of the divorce comparison.
Self mutilation, Fintan is a cunt!

 

[teuchter]

Who exactly is 'fond of the divorce comparison'?