Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[brogdale]

In fact we'd be moving back home to live with the abusive racist parents

My leave voting (working class) parents are neither abusive or racist, pal.

 

[Toast Rider]

My leave voting (working class) parents are neither abusive or racist, pal.

I'm referring to the government not your actual parents

 

[brogdale]

I'm referring to the government not your actual parents

Spoiler: OIC

Is Brexit actually going to happen?

 

[not-bono-ever]

Either staying within the 'loveless marriage' to the neoliberal supra-state or leaving and 'living in sin' with other 'free-trade' oligarchies/kleptocracies, we're not divorcing ourselves from the thing that makes us unhappy.

not much of a choice at all

 

[philosophical]

The divorce analogy are interesting, and there is reference to living with parents.
However the analogy could be developed in terms of what about the kids that came about as a result of the marriage.

 

[kebabking]

The divorce analogy are interesting, and there is reference to living with parents.
However the analogy could be developed in terms of what about the kids that came about as a result of the marriage.

If you wish to continue the analogy, you probably have friends who's parents hated the sight of each other, but who stayed to together 'for the sake of the children' - they (based on my small sample) almost certainly wish their parents had divorced long ago as living in a house where the two main parties loathed each other wasn't fun.

 

[DexterTCN]

The divorce analogy are interesting, and there is reference to living with parents.
However the analogy could be developed in terms of what about the kids that came about as a result of the marriage.

Or indeed the other family members that were staying in the house such as NI, Scotland and Gibraltar who've all been quite happy in the house and insisted they wanted to stay but are now being forced out of the house because of one troublemaker who says they all have to leave as well.

The troublemaker hasn't bothered to arrange a new place or confirm financial arrangements for the rest of us. The troublemaker has also been running up shit loads of debt, causing fights all over, making up stories and refuses to talk to anyone else currently in the house who is asking for an explanation.

 

[brogdale]

This really is a pointless analogy; all the time with live in 'patriarchy' the legal or 'religious' status of the (presumed heterosexual?) relationship' is irrelevant.
Will remain an unhappy relationship.

 

[Santino]

The house is also built on the site of a Native American graveyard.

 

[philosophical]

If you wish to continue the analogy, you probably have friends who's parents hated the sight of each other, but who stayed to together 'for the sake of the children' - they (based on my small sample) almost certainly wish their parents had divorced long ago as living in a house where the two main parties loathed each other wasn't fun.

Yeah but where do the children live? Who does the parents evenings? Who pays for what? how about what the children want or if they can't have what they want how are their options presented? What if one divorced parent wants to move away or abroad? What about grandparents and children's rights to remain in contact?
Many of these details are not simply about the financials.

Isn't it sorting the details that is the brexit issue, like what happens on the land border in Ireland?

 

[fishfinger]

The house is also built on the site of a Native American graveyard.

St George's church in Gravesend?

 

[Santino]

And at Christmas there are three sets of relatives who expect to be invited over, none of whom can stand the others.

 

[Toast Rider]

If you wish to continue the analogy, you probably have friends who's parents hated the sight of each other, but who stayed to together 'for the sake of the children' - they (based on my small sample) almost certainly wish their parents had divorced long ago as living in a house where the two main parties loathed each other wasn't fun.

Nope

 

[kebabking]

Nope

As you can see from the letters at the top of my post, I wasn't talking to you...

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Yeah but where do the children live? Who does the parents evenings? Who pays for what? how about what the children want or if they can't have what they want how are their options presented? What if one divorced parent wants to move away or abroad? What about grandparents and children's rights to remain in contact?
Many of these details are not simply about the financials.

Isn't it sorting the details that is the brexit issue, like what happens on the land border in Ireland?

What’s your point? People co-parent separately all the time, I’ve been doing it successfully for 7 years. You start by breathing into a fucking paper bag first.
Same goes for Brexit

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Or indeed the other family members that were staying in the house such as NI, Scotland and Gibraltar who've all been quite happy in the house and insisted they wanted to stay but are now being forced out of the house because of one troublemaker who says they all have to leave as well.

The troublemaker hasn't bothered to arrange a new place or confirm financial arrangements for the rest of us. The troublemaker has also been running up shit loads of debt, causing fights all over, making up stories and refuses to talk to anyone else currently in the house who is asking for an explanation.

Is there something you want to get off your chest?

 

[butchersapron]

St George's church in Gravesend?

One person doesn't make a graveyard!

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

One person doesn't make a graveyard!

They’ve missed an e out !

 

[redsquirrel]

Irrespective of the nationalist guff fed to their base/electorate, tory notions of Brexit have only ever been based upon accelerating capital's withdrawal from the supposed post-war consensus and transition from welfare state to consolidator/oligarchic state.

It's all about the base.

Long time no see. Good to have you posting again

 

[sealion]

The troublemaker has also been running up shit loads of debt,

DebtClocks.eu - Select an EU Member State's debt clock

 

[sealion]

like what happens on the land border in Ireland?

Just keep making them vote until they get it right eh. How many irish people were worried about the border when they stuck there fingers up to the eu?

 

[TremulousTetra]

You haven't managed this far on this thread. You say you've been exposed to critical thinking but I see no evidence of that. None of your replies to my posts are more than facile. If you'd listened to and thought about Martin's videos you'd not come out with the utter shite you do. Martin did seven or eight videos during last year's general election and if you'd taken on board the points he made you'd not make such a prat of yourself as you have on this thread. The problem isn't the relatively small number of working class tories but the far larger number of working class labour voters, who are the people upon who you should concentrate your persuasive efforts, such as they are. I would suggest you go away and think about things but I'm reluctantly coming to the conclusion that's not really on the cards.

as with "all police are bastards" discussion, it's not that you are factually incorrect, but possibly that your presentation is somewhat alienating people we need to ingratiate towards our common goal?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Labour can be said to be pro-working class. Can they really?

no you can't. or you wouldn't fart on and on about tory voters. i don't know if you can recall the years 1997 to 2010. but the labour government then was every bit as venal and as vile as the conservative government you abominate. the labour councils in london demolishing housing estates safe in the knowledge they won't be themselves turfed out: they do not seem to attract your ire as much as the tory voters. simply voting means agreeing to take part in the system, whereas refusing to vote is taking a step outside, really saying 'not in my name'. it is not voting tory which is the vilest act, it is voting for any party and legitimating the whole. and if you can not understand that, and if you cannot understand why people vote, then you're not going to be able to change their habits. you make out they're a load of sheeple, which really isn't a triumph of thought - critical or otherwise. your moaning about the msm - a term i first saw some years ago on the bnp website, incidentally, is simple frothing - what would you propose to do to change people's minds and to supply them with the accurate information they would need to make up their minds?

agree with you massively, but how do we get from where we are to people "refusing to vote (…) Taking a step outside"?

 

[DexterTCN]

Just keep making them vote until they get it right eh. How many irish people were worried about the border when they stuck there fingers up to the eu?

What about the 56% of Northern Irish that voted to remain?

 

[sealion]

What about the 56% of Northern Irish that voted to remain?

I'm talking about Eire and the second vote.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I'm aware that Labour are not the ultimate answer but I can understand why working class people vote for them and get involved in the party, people are under the impression that they will be better off with a Labour government and think they are more moral, or atleast have their interests in mind- I kinda get that, not that I would be saying that if the neo-liberals were still in control of the party. But atleast Labour came out of the trade union movement and can be said to be pro-working class, or atleast can easily be seen to be by alot of working class voters, they come across as genuine about introducing a proper living wage, taxing the rich etc and I can understand why people think they would be more competent as a government. The tories have robbed people of their infrastructure and Labour want to offer people that vital infrastructure they have been denied, atleast they claim to. I understand that it's socialsed capitalism we are talking about but theres no real pretense of that with the tories, they have really fucked over the working class and I therefore don't get why people, working class people, insist on voting them in again and again. It's frustrating. And it is equally frustrating and sad that there is no genuine anti-capitalist movement to speak of and I guess it gives me a dim view of people. A lack of critial thinking though does seem to be a reason for this, and a good one, a good explanation. And a lack of critical thinking seems to be what I regularly encounter from people who don't think the same way as me and don't get my politics.

whilst I agree with Pickabout Labour and especially his point about sheeple not being an adequate explanation, I do think your point is muchh more salient at this point in history. The distinction between old Labour and new Labour. The distinction between neo-economic liberalism and reformism is relevant to why "the dominant ideas in society" are moving towards the right (antidemocratic) and the way from the left (democratic).

you may find this interesting.this uses facts and figures to illustrate how reformism is actually better for capitalism than the religion of Thatcherism/Reaganomics.

 

[brogdale]

Just keep making them vote until they get it right eh. How many irish people were worried about the border when they stuck there fingers up to the eu?

That finger sticking was never an existential threat to their (or our) membership of the union, merely an inconvenient rejection of proposed constitutional reforms.
Ironically it was effectively the Irish acceptance of Lisbon in the second plebesite that paved the way for Brexit; the agreed reforms included Article 50!

 

[Toast Rider]

But according to Martin, from what I recall of a past video, he can understand why working class people vote UKIP and states that we shouldn't judge them too harshly for it. But somehow voting Labour is incomprehensible? That doesn't make sense as far as I'm concerned.

Are you referring to the Red and Black Youtube guy/from Class War?

 

[sealion]

That finger sticking was never an existential threat to their (or our) membership of the union, merely an inconvenient rejection of proposed constitutional reforms.

If they had stuck to voting no wouldn't that have messed up the eu's future progress?

 

[brogdale]

If they had stuck to voting no wouldn't that have messed up the eu's future progress?

It would have delayed the reform process, and inconvenienced the supra-state, but it didn't really pose any threat to the Union or Irish/British membership...so the border was not a relevant consideration during the 2 referenda.