Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Slo-mo]

Employers set wage levels, landlords set rent levels.

Of course they do. But they don't set market levels . An employer who pays less than the market rate will struggle to fill his job. A landlord who charges more than the market rent will struggle to let his property.

Some people talk as though landlords and employers have only just suddenly become greedy and interested in making maximum profit. They've always been fucking greedy. It's just in the last twenty years market conditions have been ideal for maximum greediness.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Of course they do. But they don't set market levels . An employer who pays less than the market rate will struggle to fill his job. A landlord who charges more than the market rent will struggle to let his property.

But there's nothing stopping an employer paying above the going the rate, or a landlord charging below it. Their hand is not forced by the presence of immigrants.

 

[Slo-mo]

But there's nothing stopping an employer paying above the going the rate, or a landlord charging below it. Their hand is not forced by the presence of immigrants.

Well I certainly agree that employers could pay more and landlords charge less. If you expect them suddenly rise up as a block and choose to do so en masse, I think you might be waiting a long time.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Some people talk as though landlords and employers have only just suddenly become greedy and interested in making maximum profit. They've always been fucking greedy. It's just in the last twenty years market conditions have been ideal for maximum greediness.

i can think of times in history where greed was less constricted than it is now. For example, unless you're the state of Qatar, you're not really allowed to own slaves any more.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Well I certainly agree that employers could pay more and landlords charge less. If you expect them suddenly rise up as a block and choose to do so en masse, I think you might be waiting a long time.

Granted, but its not immigration stopping them from being nice it's their own self-interest and only that.

 

[Slo-mo]

Granted, but its not immigration stopping them from being nice it's their own self-interest and only that.

Sure. But ultimately you become a landlord out of self interest. That is pretty much a given unfortunately. I don't see that changing, do you?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Sure. But ultimately you become a landlord out of self interest. That is pretty much a given unfortunately. I don't see that changing, do you?

Not unless we start shooting them all.

But 'landlords will never change' is a vastly different statement from 'landlords are cunts because immigrants'.

 

[Slo-mo]

Not unless we start shooting them all.

But 'landlords will never change' is a vastly different statement from 'landlords are cunts because immigrants'.

"Landlords find it easier to be cunts because of high net migration" would be how I would actually phrase it.

 

[SpookyFrank]

"Landlords find it easier to be cunts because of high net migration" would be how I would actually phrase it.

That's why I would call immigration a pretext, not a cause of low pay and high rents. Landlords are the only cause of rent levels, employers the only cause of wage levels.

 

[Slo-mo]

That's why I would call immigration a pretext, not a cause of low pay and high rents. Landlords are the only cause of rent levels, employers the only cause of wage levels.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. But then you are into the usual left wing ideas for replacing capitalism and I just don't see that happening.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. But then you are into the usual left wing ideas for replacing capitalism and I just don't see that happening.

I'm not into any ideas for replacing anything. I'm simply saying that, here and now, it is false to state that immigrants are repsonsible for increasing rents and reducing wages.

 

[Supine]

I'm not into any ideas for replacing anything. I'm simply saying that, here and now, it is false to state that immigrants are repsonsible for increasing rents and reducing wages.

Rents and wages are both subject to supply and demand so surely immigrants have an impact. As do many other factors.

 

[Slo-mo]

I'm not into any ideas for replacing anything. I'm simply saying that, here and now, it is false to state that immigrants are repsonsible for increasing rents and reducing wages.

Let's just be clear. High net migration is what I'm saying is the problem. Immigration not immigrants

 

[SpookyFrank]

Let's just be clear. High net migration is what I'm saying is the problem. Immigration not immigrants

So you're not opposed to immigrants, so long as they stay put and don't come over here putting guns to landlords' heads and demanding rent increases?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Immigrants are as likely to contribute to infrastructure and the tax-take as anyone else.

The "failure"* of government to manage resources, leading to homelessness and strained services is thus down to government not immigration. Blaming immigration lets government off the hook. It is a pro-elite ruse spooned out for dupes.

* The idea that it's a failure is naive and typically liberal. There's scant evidence that increased homelessness and disintegration of services etc. is anything other than deliberate.

 

[Pickman's model]

Immigrants are as likely to contribute to infrastructure and the tax-take as anyone else.

The "failure"* of government to manage resources, leading to homelessness and strained services is thus down to government not immigration. Blaming immigration lets government off the hook. It is a pro-elite ruse spooned out for dupes.

* The idea that it's a failure is naive and typically liberal. There's scant evidence that increased homelessness and disintegration of services etc. is anything other than deliberate.

at least there's one policy area in which this abysmal administration could, if they desired, claim a success.

 

[Pickman's model]

Let's just be clear. High net migration is what I'm saying is the problem. Immigration not immigrants

i'll tell you what the problem is, people like you who try to weasel out of their xenophobia in facile ways like this ^^

in the auld days we could have shipped you halfway round the world so you'd have been someone else's problem.

 

[Slo-mo]

i'll tell you what the problem is, people like you who try to weasel out of their xenophobia in facile ways like this ^^

in the auld days we could have shipped you halfway round the world so you'd have been someone else's problem.

Trust me, if Australia had an open door immigration policy I'd be off like a shot.

 

[Pickman's model]

Trust me, if Australia had an open door immigration policy I'd be off like a shot.

they do, they will assist you in moving to nauru.

 

[Slo-mo]

So you're not opposed to immigrants, so long as they stay put and don't come over here putting guns to landlords' heads and demanding rent increases?

My point is that immigrants don't set immigration policy. The people that do, governments, seem only too willing to listen to the employers and landlords who want high net migration.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

at least there's one policy area in which this abysmal administration could, if they desired, claim a success.

There's far more than one tbh. Forced repatriation of black people legally here; Sale of infrastructure to friends and donors; Sale of policy influence; Support for terrorism and covering up report on who funds it; Increased homeless, penury and general poverty; Disabled people killing themselves; desperate situation in public health and many areas of education, especially for the poor; Election fraud; Increased race-hate attacks...

The idea that this government is a failure is bizarre.

 

[steeplejack]

tsk! you forgot to mention his father-in - law, Lord Cottesloe, in whose extensive country estate lies the elegant and palatial period residence of Mr & Mrs Duncan Smith.
You're slipping...

You're obviously more up on your Debrett's than most realise

 

[Badgers]

YouGov

 

[The39thStep]

Rents and wages are both subject to supply and demand so surely immigrants have an impact. As do many other factors.

Over supply of labour will have an effect on wages

 

[andysays]

Brexit: Jeremy Hunt warns Boris Johnson over customs comments

Jeremy Hunt has warned Boris Johnson his public criticism could undermine the UK's Brexit negotiating position. The health secretary told BBC Radio 4's Today he thought "it's important that we have these debates in private". The UK government is currently deciding which form of future trade relations it wants with the EU before the detailed negotiations take place in Brussels.

More divisions within the Cabinet over the Brexit approach...

 

[MickiQ]

Over supply of labour will have an effect on wages

Yes and No, there is a tendency to treat workers as totally interchangeable which simply isn't realistic, an influx of unskilled workers won't depress the wages for skilled ones, only for competing unskilled workers, One of the biggest issues in this country is the abject failure of both government and employers to invest in education and training.
Immigration is a complex issue, a shortage of skilled workers at the same time there is a glut of unskilled ones is also a complex issue, Trying to find something simple to pin the blame on is however human nature.

 

[MickiQ]

Brexit: Jeremy Hunt warns Boris Johnson over customs comments



More divisions within the Cabinet over the Brexit approach...

I'm really coming round to the conclusion that the only solution to this for them to fight to the death.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I'm really coming round to the conclusion that the only solution to this for them to fight to the death.

I would pay to see that.

 

[andysays]

I'm really coming round to the conclusion that the only solution to this for them to fight to the death.

Hunt and Johnson in particular or the whole cabinet?

My personal preference would be for a full-scale last-Cabinet-member-standing Battle Royale

 

[sealion]

I'm really coming round to the conclusion that the only solution to this for them to fight to the death.

None of them have any guts for a fight, they would put it out to tender.