Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[kabbes]

You're right there. To have a blanket hatred for brexiters has a clear overlap with any blanket hatred, like for a certain race. There is a difference though, I hate brexiters for what they do, I should say 'done'.

Plus you did indeed declare that Brexiters are racists like I said and like you objected to, right? Not a question, was it?

 

[Winot]

OK, having read that and the Bogdanor article which Pickman's model linked to, I accept that I was mistaken and that it's the WTO rules as well as the EU's demands that any nation wanting MFN status must accept the other criteria (like free movement and identical standards and regulations) which would necessitate a hard Irish border if agreement couldn't be reached.

Here, for what it's worth, is the article I referred to earlier where the Irish Foreign Minister talked explicitly about the need for a hard border to protect the EU's market.
Brexit: Dublin casts doubt on UK's latest NI border plan

It makes more sense if you think of the EU being a single country as far as trade is concerned.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nice to see the politically principled are still holding out for a miracle. You do know James Stewart is dead?

Here are some links relating to either good stuff the EU does, addressing deliberately held misconceptions and and on shit stuff to do with the UK domestic issues. I would love to be reassured that there is hope for the good things to be replicated or improved post brexit, the misconceptions to be replaced with actions that will benefit normal people and the shitty things about UK domestic policy to be reversed.

The screenshots are from the leave eu Facebook page. We're not racist we just post 4 or 5 times more comments on things that are not related to the EU if they're about non white people. If you care to visit their page and look at the comments they include all the leave voters in their number. 17.4 million . The will of the people still seems pretty racist to me.

Yes I realise that Leave EU are not representative of all leave voters but the leave campaign pandered to their fears and desires without the need to make any concessions to people who may have been offended by those views, so it seems reasonable to assume that a sizeable majority of leave voters have no problem with a bit of xenophobia.

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Environmental policy of the European Union - Wikipedia

Cooperatives - Aναπτυξη - European Commission

Fact Check: do new EU rules make it impossible to renationalise railways?

Subscribe to read

From the FT article as it may be subscription only. I had to complete a survey to access it.

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Normal number of comments.
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When a post has nothing to do with brexit but features the wrong sort of people.
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Tories are currently pulling themselves together now Labour are looking like a threat. Labour are probably going to start fighting over single market access. Somehow a reasonable number of the population are happy with the way negotiations are going.

As things stand, with just over a year to go things look exactly as they did just post referendum. A big old lurch to the right with a catastrophic, for the NHS especially, trade deal with the US pushed through in time for the Tories to win the next election because any trade deal no matter how damaging to the interests of us will be spun as proof the Tories got everything right.

All the problems the government have faced have been self inflicted. Incompetent as they are they are more than capable of putting their differences aside for the sake of remaining in power. If that wasn't an overriding motivated the 48 letters would have been sent by now and Rees-Mogg would be PM.

tl; dr

 

[Pickman's model]

Nice to see the politically principled are still holding out for a miracle. You do know James Stewart is dead?

Here are some links relating to either good stuff the EU does, addressing deliberately held misconceptions and and on shit stuff to do with the UK domestic issues. I would love to be reassured that there is hope for the good things to be replicated or improved post brexit, the misconceptions to be replaced with actions that will benefit normal people and the shitty things about UK domestic policy to be reversed.

The screenshots are from the leave eu Facebook page. We're not racist we just post 4 or 5 times more comments on things that are not related to the EU if they're about non white people. If you care to visit their page and look at the comments they include all the leave voters in their number. 17.4 million . The will of the people still seems pretty racist to me.

Yes I realise that Leave EU are not representative of all leave voters but the leave campaign pandered to their fears and desires without the need to make any concessions to people who may have been offended by those views, so it seems reasonable to assume that a sizeable majority of leave voters have no problem with a bit of xenophobia.

View attachment 129449


Environmental policy of the European Union - Wikipedia

Cooperatives - Aναπτυξη - European Commission

Fact Check: do new EU rules make it impossible to renationalise railways?

Subscribe to read

From the FT article as it may be subscription only. I had to complete a survey to access it.

View attachment 129447

Normal number of comments.
View attachment 129444
When a post has nothing to do with brexit but features the wrong sort of people.
View attachment 129445
View attachment 129446

Tories are currently pulling themselves together now Labour are looking like a threat. Labour are probably going to start fighting over single market access. Somehow a reasonable number of the population are happy with the way negotiations are going.

As things stand, with just over a year to go things look exactly as they did just post referendum. A big old lurch to the right with a catastrophic, for the NHS especially, trade deal with the US pushed through in time for the Tories to win the next election because any trade deal no matter how damaging to the interests of us will be spun as proof the Tories got everything right.

All the problems the government have faced have been self inflicted. Incompetent as they are they are more than capable of putting their differences aside for the sake of remaining in power. If that wasn't an overriding motivated the 48 letters would have been sent by now and Rees-Mogg would be PM.

Oh spotted that bit about the tories pulling themselves together. Really? That's a pile of auld shite, it's utter nonsense. But all one can expect from you.

 

[sealion]

brexiters want to now wash their hands of the consequences of their actions when they say it is now up to somebody else to sort it all out.

The electorate aren't politicians. What do you think one of us nasty racist leavers can do to solve the border issue in Ireland ? What power do you think we have that a politicion hasn't ?

 

[JimW]

Read above, that ship has sailed and wherever it is heading is not relevant compared to where the UK is heading.
Now, about the Irish border, have you thought up any solutions yet?

The end of politics, the abandonment of democracy. You won't engage with half the country you live in and hand the future over to a remote super-state to go where it will. Passive surrender to the never-ending capitalist death cult.

 

[DexterTCN]

The electorate aren't politicians. What do think one of us nasty racist leavers can do to solve the border issue in Ireland ? What power do you think we have that a politicion hasn't ?

Northern Ireland voted to remain. Unfortunately the superstate it is a part of had different ideas so they got fucked.

 

[philosophical]

ORLY??

Where’s the question in that, then?
Yes, saying you hate people is indeed lashing out. Not to mention an interesting parallel with the manifestation of racism.

The way I say I see things is valid, but it is not the same as stating a fact.

Plus you did indeed declare that Brexiters are racists like I said and like you objected to, right? Not a question, was it?

Yeah right.

 

[philosophical]

The electorate aren't politicians. What do think one of us nasty racist leavers can do to solve the border issue in Ireland ? What power do you think we have that a politicion hasn't ?

Given the evidence available to me so far I would say the leavers can do jack, and the politicians too, however the point I make repeatedly is that the leavers are the ones who ought to come up with workable practical suggestions, and their politician mates as well, because there are only about 14 months left, and the leavers and their politicians have already had about 20 months so far.

 

[teuchter]

So one solution to the Irish border thing is just to leave, and leave the border open, and blame Ireland / the EU for any hard border that then appears, and/or call the buff of the WTO on enforcement of their rules, and if no border appears then just accept zero-tariff imports to the UK and the consequences for domestic businesses that might accompany that. Fair enough.

Another is to do the Brexit In Name Only, so leave the EU but agree to continue in complete harmonisation with their regs, tariffs and so on, and continue to accept the free movement of people if that's what the EU requires.

What's the justification for choosing the first option over the second - is it based on an interpretation of what people voted for and why?

 

[kabbes]

Another is to place the hard border between NI and GB

 

[philosophical]

The end of politics, the abandonment of democracy. You won't engage with half the country you live in and hand the future over to a remote super-state to go where it will. Passive surrender to the never-ending capitalist death cult.

The vote has been cast geddit? I won't be handing anything over to the EU, even if I wanted to and least of all the future. The future is brexit, the future is Gove, Johnson, Redwood, Hoey and the rest of them. They are the people, along with all those who voted brexit who have got us here, they hold the reins, they have to come up with the solutions. Certainly not me, I didn't vote for it, but the winners, and they have to face the consequences, one being the issue of the land border on the island of Ireland.

 

[sealion]

leavers are the ones who ought to come up with workable practical suggestions,

Why ? What difference would it make ?

 

[philosophical]

Why ? What difference would it make ?

The difference would be, if the leavers were able to magic up a solution, is that the practicalities of everyday life would become clear, and ordinary progress would be workable.
The leavers have the chance to make that happen, I don't know how, but they have the chance and so far have come up with nothing at all.

Another is to place the hard border between NI and GB

It would be, but there are just a couple of degrees of separation to get round. Brexiters are welded to the Tories, the Tories are welded to the DUP, and the DUP are welded to insanity.
I am hoping that 'practical' and 'workable' can be eased into the plans brexiters have made.

 

[philosophical]

So one solution to the Irish border thing is just to leave, and leave the border open, and blame Ireland / the EU for any hard border that then appears, and/or call the buff of the WTO on enforcement of their rules, and if no border appears then just accept zero-tariff imports to the UK and the consequences for domestic businesses that might accompany that. Fair enough.

Another is to do the Brexit In Name Only, so leave the EU but agree to continue in complete harmonisation with their regs, tariffs and so on, and continue to accept the free movement of people if that's what the EU requires.

What's the justification for choosing the first option over the second - is it based on an interpretation of what people voted for and why?

You have offered up sensible options, neither of which I anticipate will come to pass.
What about honesty boxes and self declaration of people?
Or what about a micro chip in the earlobe of everybody on the planet, that can be read by Boris style 'technology'?

 

[sealion]

I'm quite enjoying the liberal guilt trippers throwing the same old tired punch. People who couldn't give a shit about Ireland are now using it as a stick to whack leavers with. I reckon remainers thought no more about the border when ticking that box than leavers did.

 

[Anju]

Oh spotted that bit about the tories pulling themselves together. Really? That's a pile of auld shite, it's utter nonsense. But all one can expect from you.

Reply is also to BA as he also seemed to ? my perspective.

There is a sudden silence on the internal struggles of the government, even some support for May from the more extreme pro brexit side. It's not because everyone has suddenly got what they want and it's not because there has been a mass u turn on either side. They are going to firm it.

 

[sealion]

The leavers have the chance to make that happen, I don't know how,

We will leave it right there then.

 

[Pickman's model]

Reply is also to BA as he also seemed to ? my perspective.

There is a sudden silence on the internal struggles of the government, even some support for May from the more extreme pro brexit side. It's not because everyone has suddenly got what they want and it's not because there has been a mass u turn on either side. They are going to firm it.

Utter bilge.

 

[stethoscope]

Reply is also to BA as he also seemed to ? my perspective.

There is a sudden silence on the internal struggles of the government, even some support for May from the more extreme pro brexit side. It's not because everyone has suddenly got what they want and it's not because there has been a mass u turn on either side. They are going to firm it.

You appear to be in a fantasy world, because the divisions in the Tory ranks are still very much there and are regularly reported on. They've no idea what and where they're at. Meanwhile, Labour are resurgent again.

Though I suspect it must fucking hurt for you liberals that Corbyn is now backing brexit as official policy too. Will you be off to the austerity-enabling Lib Dems for consolation?

 

[philosophical]

I'm quite enjoying the liberal guilt trippers throwing the same old tired punch. People who couldn't give a shit about Ireland are now using it as a stick to whack leavers with. I reckon remainers thought no more about the border when ticking that box than leavers did.

You make the assumption that people didn't give a shit about Ireland, but in my experience many did. Certainly I did.
I would agree that brexiters didn't, and it looks like they still don't.

 

[DexterTCN]

So one solution to the Irish border thing is just to leave, and leave the border open, and blame Ireland / the EU for any hard border that then appears, and/or call the buff of the WTO on enforcement of their rules, and if no border appears then just accept zero-tariff imports to the UK and the consequences for domestic businesses that might accompany that. Fair enough.

Another is to do the Brexit In Name Only, so leave the EU but agree to continue in complete harmonisation with their regs, tariffs and so on, and continue to accept the free movement of people if that's what the EU requires.

What's the justification for choosing the first option over the second - is it based on an interpretation of what people voted for and why?

BINO isn't going to happen most likely, it would require tax regulation harmony and the much stricter EU laws come into effect just around the time we're leaving...an amazing coincidence.

There's always been concerns about UK banking.

brexit frees those (and other) institutions to carry on, cc charges will most likely return/increase, less regulation of the internal markets...tory stuff. 'Restandardisation' of many things just before trade deals are announced - shit like that.

 

[pocketscience]

So one solution to the Irish border thing is just to leave, and leave the border open, and blame Ireland / the EU for any hard border that then appears, and/or call the buff of the WTO on enforcement of their rules, and if no border appears then just accept zero-tariff imports to the UK and the consequences for domestic businesses that might accompany that. Fair enough.

Another is to do the Brexit In Name Only, so leave the EU but agree to continue in complete harmonisation with their regs, tariffs and so on, and continue to accept the free movement of people if that's what the EU requires.

What's the justification for choosing the first option over the second - is it based on an interpretation of what people voted for and why?

Another is to place the hard border between NI and GB

Another would be to negotiate a trade agreement (which as far as I'm aware of, both sides have said they intend to do/ are currently doing)

 

[philosophical]

We will leave it right there then.

Until the aggravation starts?

 

[DexterTCN]

BINO could happen with NI though, sorry.

 

[philosophical]

Another would be to negotiate a trade agreement (which as far as I'm aware of, both sides have said they intend to do/ are currently doing)

Or finish in the situation where 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.
What then?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

and ordinary progress would be workable.

What even is that?

 

[sealion]

I would agree that brexiters didn't, and it looks like they still don't.

Yeah, you keep repeating that.

 

[Winot]

Another would be to negotiate a trade agreement (which as far as I'm aware of, both sides have said they intend to do/ are currently doing)

Yes I think this is the most likely in the long term but could take 5-10 years to negotiate. A long transition period would help. Not sure if this is politically possible.

 

[pocketscience]

Or finish in the situation where 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.
What then?

I would assume the negotiators then negotiate the other options, in order of their priorities