Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
Also...the peace process was not and is not considered a failure by many who fought as members of the PIRA. Believe it or not butchersapron
Irish Unity Watch Thread
- Thread starter Idris2002
- Start date
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And we're off. After your early doors hounding of an irish poster as not really irish i reckon you, you better sit back.
Anything you say is historically wrong idiocy fed by a mad nationalist worldview. It's nothing. It's just rote response to the enemy.
You never lived in derry or belfast. It's utter crude rhetoric.
You're a performing irish doll - by choice.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I blame the media. This is what irish means so be it.
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
What was the IRA fighting for?
Worth a read butchersapron
"As the IRA leadership geared up for their first direct negotiations with the British in early 1972 this was how they formulated their preconditions for ending the IRA campaign:
image from the front page of An Phoblacht on 24 December 1972. It sets out four demands at a time when the leadership was seeking to reengage in negotiations with the British government:
‘WE DEMAND
*Abolition of repressive Legislation
*British Troops be Withdrawn
*Release of All Political Prisoners
*Full Support for Civil Rights
Then – and only then – will we have a true and lasting peace in Ireland’
As for you butchersapron... .....you are the one resorting to name calling...big of you.
Worth a read butchersapron
"As the IRA leadership geared up for their first direct negotiations with the British in early 1972 this was how they formulated their preconditions for ending the IRA campaign:
- The immediate withdrawal of British armed forces from the streets of Northern Ireland, coupled with a statement of intent as to the eventual evacuation of British forces and an acknowledgement of the right of the Irish people to determine their own future without interference from the British government
- The abolition of the Stormont parliament
- A total amnesty for all political prisoners in Ireland and Britain, both tried and untried, and for all those on the wanted list"
image from the front page of An Phoblacht on 24 December 1972. It sets out four demands at a time when the leadership was seeking to reengage in negotiations with the British government:
‘WE DEMAND
*Abolition of repressive Legislation
*British Troops be Withdrawn
*Release of All Political Prisoners
*Full Support for Civil Rights
Then – and only then – will we have a true and lasting peace in Ireland’
As for you butchersapron... .....you are the one resorting to name calling...big of you.
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Why are you suggesting that i read this from 1972. Does ireland just merge into a chronology free horror that you - from wherever you are - experience and everyone else be quiet.
You don't even know what terms like mandate that you use mean. Pic of homer presenting copy.
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
You're wrong in all the above. I didnt hound anyone. And I didnt discuss anyone's nationality here.
... as for hounding...you seem to hound me a lot....
It doesnt bother me.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Right, flypanam didn't get it. Not the right sort of Irish.You're wrong in all the above. I didnt hound anyone. And I didnt discuss anyone's nationality here.
... as for hounding...you seem to hound me a lot....
It doesnt bother me.
N_igma
Epistemic nuisance
Where I’m from it was seen as a complete and utter capitulation. My dad is still bitterly angry over it all. People like him suffered whilst the rest took cushy jobs but that’s another story.
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
Oh...you thought I was being personal? Nah... I wrote about the terminology flypanam used...specifically "Southern Ireland" and the "southern state".
They are not terms used officially.
Anyway...
I'm only a doll to you.
And flypanam is probably well able to stand up for themselves against a doll.
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Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
I can understand your dad's feelings.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And what witches use what term.
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
These were to pressure the internal opposition, not the British state. They worked.
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
Because you posted the goal of the PIRA was..
"The Provisional IRA ended its campaign in the 1990s without uniting Ireland or ending British sovereignty in the North. Sinn Féin became part of a government at Stormont, sharing power with unionists within the UK. Republican critics asked how they could abandon their fundamental goals in this way. Anti-Republican critics asked how they could justify thirty years of violent conflict when they had signed up in the 1990s to a moderate compromise settlement of the kind that had been on offer at Sunningdale two decades earlier. Both sets of critics portrayed them as a failed movement hiding the reality of their surrender behind fine phrases. But what exactly was the Provisional IRA fighting for during the Troubles? What were its goals? On what basis were they prepared to end their campaign? That might seem obvious – a united Ireland surely? It never appeared on the list of IRA demands. The end of British sovereignty? That was never one of their formal demands either. As the IRA leadership geared up for their first direct negotiations with the British in early 1972 this was how they formulated their preconditions for ending the IRA campaign:
- The immediate withdrawal of British armed forces from the streets of Northern Ireland, coupled with a statement of intent as to the eventual evacuation of British forces and an acknowledgement of the right of the Irish people to determine their own future without interference from the British government
- The abolition of the Stormont parliament
- A total amnesty for all political prisoners in Ireland and Britain, both tried and untried, and for all those on the wanted list
Most important is what it leaves out. No direct demand for Irish reunification or the ending of British sovereignty and no date for withdrawal of troops (‘eventual evacuation’). Even more extraordinary is this (blurry) image from the front page of An Phoblacht on 24 December 1972. It sets out four demands at a time when the leadership was seeking to reengage in negotiations with the British government:
‘WE DEMAND
*Abolition of repressive Legislation
*British Troops be Withdrawn
*Release of All Political Prisoners
*Full Support for Civil Rights
Then – and only then – will we have a true and lasting peace in Ireland’
Once again there is no mention of Irish unity, sovereignty or the Irish republic. Not even self-determination is mentioned this time. It is striking evidence that they were formulating their position in such a way as to provide openings for negotiation and compromise.
Many analysts have characterised the 1970s leadership of David O’Connell and Ruairí O Brádaigh as dogmatic, rigid and uncompromising – idealists to their supporters, fantasists to their critics. They are contrasted with their successors, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, who are portrayed as less principled and more willing to concede – pragmatic, or opportunist (‘sell outs’) depending on your perspective.
But the negotiating positions adopted by the leadership in the early 1970s provide strong evidence that even at those early stages O’Connell and O Brádaigh were well aware that any settlement would require deep and difficult compromises. Rather than a rigid movement that finally abandoned its goals under opportunist leaders in the 1990s, we see instead a surprising continuity between the Republican leadership of the early 1970s and that of the 1990s. In both periods strong rhetoric was used to keep the movement united and ideologically coherent, sustain morale and support and strengthen its bargaining position with the British state. This uncompromising rhetoric coexisted with a strong awareness that the movement would make only limited gains in any settlement and would have to make difficult compromises.
Ó Dochartaigh, Niall (2015) ‘The Longest Negotiation: British Policy, IRA Strategy and the Making of the Northern Ireland Peace Settlement’. Political Studies, 63 (1), 202-220. http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/1467-9248.12091
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There is nothing black and white about the PIRA. They knew for a long time that negotiations and compromise were going to be inevitable.
butchersapron I suspect you were never searched by a British army officer as a 6 yr old child... seeing as you incorrectly decided who and what I am, I'll take a guess and suss you out too.. I'd say you were/are aligned possibly to one of the communities in NI...the one that had more opportunities, land ownership, employment, housing, power, rights to vote and wealth? The one who had more to lose from change.
Not that it matters much. People shake hands and get on with trying to make peace every day from both communities...it is about sharing a future together isnt it? Thats what the vast majority of people want. Doesnt mean we have to completely forget the past. Or rewrite it...or misinterpret it.
you are saying this about the Canary wharf bombing.
By "internal" do you mean the DUP?
For those who dont recall the actual sequence of events leading up to the bombing....
"In December 1993 the British and Irish governments issued the Downing Street Declaration. It allowed Sinn Féin, to participate in all-party peace negotiations on condition that the IRA called a ceasefire. The IRA called a ceasefire on 31 August 1994. Over the next seventeen months there were a number of meetings between representatives of the British government and Sinn Féin. There were also talks—among representatives of the British and Irish governments and the Northern Ireland parties—about how all-party peace negotiations could take place.
By 1996, John Major's government had lost its majority in the British parliament and was depending on Ulster unionist votes to stay in power. The British government began insisting that the IRA must fully disarm before Sinn Féin would be allowed to take part in full-fledged peace talks.
The IRA rejected this demand, seeing it as a demand for total surrender.Sinn Féin said that the IRA would not disarm before talks, but that it would discuss disarmament as part of an overall solution. On 23 January 1996, the international commission for disarmament in Northern Ireland recommended that Britain drop its demand, suggesting that disarmament begin during talks rather than before. The British government refused to drop its demand....Influenced by the unionists...and it was obviously a biased decision.
Responding to the commission, Major said in parliament that, for there to be talks, either the IRA would have to disarm or there would have to be an election in Northern Ireland. Irish republicans and nationalists wanted talks to begin swiftly, but noted that it would take months to organize and hold an election.Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams argued that the British government and unionists were erecting "one obstacle after another to frustrate every attempt to sit down around the negotiating table". Adams warned American diplomats that the British government's actions were "threatening the ceasefire".
On the day of the Canary wharf bombing the IRA announced an end to their ceasefire as follows...
"As we stated on August 31, 1994, the basis for the cessation was to enhance the democratic peace process and to underline our definitive commitment to its success. […] Instead of embracing the peace process, the British government acted in bad faith, with Mr Major and the Unionist leaders squandering this unprecedented opportunity to resolve the conflict. Time and again, over the last 18 months, selfish party political and sectional interests in the London parliament have been placed before the rights of the people of Ireland. […] The blame for the failure thus far of the Irish peace process lies squarely with John Major and his government."
Within a couple of hours they gave 6 warnings and accurate descriptions of where the bomb was. The police arrived 30 mins after the warning to commence evacuation. 2 men were killed in the explosion 100 injured and £150million worth of damages were caused.
On 28 February, John Major, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, and John Bruton, taoiseach, announced that all-party talks would be resumed in June. Major dropped the demand for the IRA to disarm before Sinn Féin would be allowed into talks.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Jesus christ
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
Idris2002
Christmas Eve, you know?
He also makes his family stand to attention during the Queen's speech.
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
Thinking of sending him a wee Christmas present.
Grey Herringbone Tweed Irish Cap
In return for a bowler. I'd love to have one.
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
I doubt butchersapron would have enjoyed Mungret college...once a Jesuit run college and attended by Bracken.....its only a few kms away from me as I write.
