Irish Partition - what if the whole of Ireland had become independent in 1921?

[A380]

Counterfactual fans.

May 1921 and the British Government didn’t bottle it over the North / bottled it even more over the North.

Possibly with the exception of the treaty ports, the Rebuplic stretches over the whole of Ireland.

So what happens next? From an even bloodier three way civil war to the working class industrial prods throwing their hats (and the manufacturing capacity of Shorts and H&W) behind Collins and creating a truly socialist Ireland preventing Dev gifting the country to the Landlords and the Church? Or more likely something in between.

Irish history experts of Urban, share your thoughts.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

That still leaves the thorny problem of the constitutional status of Craggy Island.

 

[A380]

That still leaves the thorny problem of the constitutional status of Craggy Island.

But it’s both small AND far away.

 

[Pickman's model]

Counterfactual fans.

May 1921 and the British Government didn’t bottle it over the North / bottled it even more over the North.

Possibly with the exception of the treaty ports, the Rebuplic stretches over the whole Ireland.

So what happens next? From an even bloodier three way civil war to the working class industrial prods throwing their hats (and the manufacturing capacity of Shorts and H&W) behind Collins and creating a truly socialist Ireland preventing Dev gifting the country to the Landlords and the Church? Or more likely something in between.

Irish history experts of Urban, share your thoughts.

it'd be an interesting position indeed in which the uk government do not merely hand over all of ireland (there being no treaty by which the retention of any ports binds the new 32 co government) but they defy parliament and the government of ireland act they brought in mere months before as well as the oranges and the military men of the curragh mutiny, those who remain alive after the late war being not only aulder but more senior

 

[A380]

i think you're forgetting a salient point from 1920, namely the government of ireland act

This is a counterfactual: I don’t know, the speaker’s dog ate that Act. Or, heavens to Betsy, a British Government changed it’s mind and went back on an undertaking it had made in law.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is a counterfactual: I don’t know, the speaker’s dog ate that Act. Or, heavens to Betsy, a British Government changed it’s mind and went back on an undertaking it had made in law.

ah so this is a counterfactual of the sort e h carr called playing parlour games with history

 

[JimW]

Football team would have qualified for more world cups.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

That still leaves the thorny problem of the constitutional status of Craggy Island.

that would be an ecumenical matter...

 

[A380]

ah so this is a counterfactual of the sort e h carr called playing parlour games with history

Yes, obviously. It’s a bank holiday Monday and it’s pissing with rain. It’s this or focus exclusively on tidying the house.

So what happens in Ireland? Also what effects does that have across the rest of the Empire. Would India have been partitioned?what would it have meant for the Atlantic campaign ? Would Ringo still have been the drummer or would they have got someone good?

 

[JimW]

Carson seemed to be fairly earnest in his claim of armed resistance though how long it would have sustained after abandonment by the motherland I don't know.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

That still leaves the thorny problem of the constitutional status of Craggy Island.

I suspect that Dougal and Ted would be split on the issue of joining the new Irish state, leaving the casting vote to Father Jack.

 

[flypanam]

Counterfactual fans.

May 1921 and the British Government didn’t bottle it over the North / bottled it even more over the North.

Possibly with the exception of the treaty ports, the Rebuplic stretches over the whole of Ireland.

So what happens next? From an even bloodier three way civil war to the working class industrial prods throwing their hats (and the manufacturing capacity of Shorts and H&W) behind Collins and creating a truly socialist Ireland preventing Dev gifting the country to the Landlords and the Church? Or more likely something in between.

Irish history experts of Urban, share your thoughts.

Collin’s had no love of socialism, a 32 county Ireland may have been deeply reactionary. The difference might have been there may have been a stronger labour movement, and labour could stop waiting.

 

[Pickman's model]

Collin’s had no love of socialism, a 32 county Ireland may have been deeply reactionary. The difference might have been there may have been a stronger labour movement, and labour could stop waiting.

collins lives to 1956, being president for life from 1930 while de valera falls by the wayside in the 1940s never having grasped the power he so desired. poor o'duffy ends up stitching blue shirts in a liberties garret

 

[Idris2002]

Ireland won't have been neutral in 1939-45, anyway.

Or if it is, it will be reoccupied by "the mother country".

 

[Idris2002]

Counterfactual fans.

May 1921 and the British Government didn’t bottle it over the North / bottled it even more over the North.

Possibly with the exception of the treaty ports, the Rebuplic stretches over the whole of Ireland.

So what happens next? From an even bloodier three way civil war to the working class industrial prods throwing their hats (and the manufacturing capacity of Shorts and H&W) behind Collins and creating a truly socialist Ireland preventing Dev gifting the country to the Landlords and the Church? Or more likely something in between.

Irish history experts of Urban, share your thoughts.

"Three way civil war"? Where's the third faction coming from?

 

[A380]

"Three way civil war"? Where's the third faction coming from?

Protestants from the six North Eastern counties - people who were Unionists in our timeline.

 

[Idris2002]

Protestants from the six North Eastern counties - people who were Unionists in our timeline.

Yes, and . . . are you assuming that there will be a Free State/Irregulars split anyway?

 

[A380]

Yes, and . . . are you assuming that there will be a Free State/Irregulars split anyway?

Perhaps or perhaps not. What would your view be?

 

[Idris2002]

Collin’s had no love of socialism, a 32 county Ireland may have been deeply reactionary. The difference might have been there may have been a stronger labour movement, and labour could stop waiting.

The recent report on the mother and baby homes suggested that most of the incarcerated single mother came from rural areas where the vital thing was keeping hold of the bit of land. That persists in rural Ireland (esp. strong farmer areas) regardless of the regime.

The twin religious traditions might well have colluded to impose social conservatism, that's true. And in the north, a lot of local councils will still chain up kids' playgrounds on sabbath observance grounds.

 

[Idris2002]

Perhaps or perhaps not. What would your view be?

I was about to suggest that there's no partition so no split, but some hardliners probably wouldn't accept a limited sovereignty, even if it was 32 county. Whether there are enough of them to form a faction that can take the fight to their newly discovered enemies is another question.

 

[spitfire]

There will have been a split somewhere. There’s always a split.

 

[petee]

The recent report on the mother and baby homes suggested that most of the incarcerated single mother came from rural areas where the vital thing was keeping hold of the bit of land.

that was the case in my family ...

 

[flypanam]

The twin religious traditions might well have colluded to impose social conservatism, that's true. And in the north, a lot of local councils will still chain up kids' playgrounds on sabbath observance grounds.

Still do so in Drum, Co. Monaghan.

 

[Idris2002]

Still do so in Drum, Co. Monaghan.

Parnell famously referred to Monaghan as "the remote north".

 

[Idris2002]

The twin religious traditions might well have colluded to impose social conservatism, that's true.

However. . . the persistence of Freemasonry among the Protestant community may have acted as a check on that. The Mason's hall in Bandon was attacked by a mob during the Tan war, with all the Masonic bits and pieces being thrown out in the street. A united front of social conservatives may be difficult when one side thinks that dressing up in funny costumes and using weird handshakes is the same as worshipping the devil.

E2A: after summoning the demon of google via a modified black lodge grand orient rite, I discovered this link, which highlights the furious anti-masonic politics of the 1920s Free State: Local brotherhood – An Irishman’s Diary on the freemasonry controversy in 1920s Ireland

That would surely have been amplified in a united Ireland where the Protestant community was much bigger, with the number of masons in the state being proprtionately bigger. I remember in Moneyreagh once seeing a Masonic lodge built right next to the local Orange hall. . .

 

[Jeff Robinson]

That still leaves the thorny problem of the constitutional status of Craggy Island.

Not to forget those eejits on Rugged Island.

 

[Idris2002]

Not to forget those eejits on Rugged Island.

A possession of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, I believe.

 

[JTG]

Counterfactual fans.

May 1921 and the British Government didn’t bottle it over the North / bottled it even more over the North.

Possibly with the exception of the treaty ports, the Rebuplic stretches over the whole of Ireland.

 

[Idris2002]

With a larger population, and an industrial zone of some sort, protectionist and import substitution strategies for development become a bit more viable than in the context of the 26 counties as we know them. The question is, how much more viable? Viable enough to make a go of it?

 

[Artaxerxes]

Massive shit show and protestant and catholic murders at the border and throughout Belfast ultimately quashed by the British army and thousands dead.