IRA officially decommissions arms
- Thread starter DexterTCN
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cemertyone
Well-Known Member
tobyjug said:
As usual your WRONG Toby.....Casltereagh...Diplock Courts....and on to the H-Blocks.....doe`s that ring a bell in YOUR so-called British justice system???
I mean its got nothing to do with actually lowering the level of evidence required in a normal court to convict an alleged offender does it i wonder..
And i have to giggle at your suggestion.....
Have you i wonder every heard of the " SUper-grass " system where by people indeed ( despite your assertation to the contary) are indeed convicted on such evidence that you proclaim is not so.....
You really should stop blustering about things which you don't have a clue about. You sound exactly like a typical ignoramus know-it-all pub bore. Read some of the history of the enormous lengths the IRA went to import weapons and the long list of people who were caught in sting operations and so on in doing so.tobyjug said:
Essentially, a perusal of this history suggests that unless you have the active collaboration of a government somewhere in the world (which is increasingly impossible itself as uncle sam will not be pleased), it is only possible to import arms into the UK in very small numbers and with a fairly small success rate leaving a large number of people in prison.
Your stuff about a lack of evidence for decommissioning is also embarrassingly uninformed. I advise shutting up.
cemertyone
Well-Known Member
tobyjug said:
did you SEE the PLO de-commission...NO NO NO you did not... Did you see the ANC de-commission......NO NO NO. why would you want to "SEE" the ra ( and what does that actually mean to you) go through a different process than that...
it does not matter what the Catholic/nationalist community do for these prod idiots...they simply NEVER EVER want to share power and they will put up every and any obsticle in the way of progress..and if you cant see that by now your fucking blind......
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Given that you're not one of the people appointed to verfiy that de-commissioning has actually taken place (and that they're satisfied that it has) you're very unlikely to in the first place aren't you?tobyjug said:
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
So why then did they announce that de-comissioning had taken place?tobyjug said:
And you are still not likely to be handed the evidence given that you were not one of those appointed to verify if decommisioning had taken place - are you under the impression that you were?
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
tobyjug said:
Once more, you should familiarise yourself with the distinction between evidence and proof. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is needed to obtain a conviction. You are now arguing that there is evidence available but that the evidence is not sufficient to reach that standard of proof.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And just to add to one of the points above - The IRA is perfctly capable of manufacturing arms if at some future date they decide to go back to war. Bombs and Mortars a speciality - they have that technical capability and they're never going to lose it - it can't be decomissioned. So those carrying on about only being happy when they've seen lorry loads of arms blown up or melted down are still miles off and barking up the wrong tree.Nigel Irritable said:
fanta said:
But therin lies the whole fallacy of decommisioning.
The provos can get rid of every single weapon. And then stock up on fertiliser in homebase tomorrrow for another Canary Wharf.
Decomissioning is a red herring. What is significant is their attitude to the police boards ie their attitude to the state authorities.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The pertinent question is what it means to republicans to even publically admit that they've accepted the need to decomission and involved themselves in a project that aims to do just that. You're missing the importance of that and concentrating on petty points - of course the IRA could go back to war at any time - i don't think anyone would deny that (see above points). But you're ignoring the political implications in favour of engaging in some stale and silly moral one-upmanship.fanta said:
Whether they have given up all their weapons or not, this is a highly symbolic and significant thing that the IRA have done. Personally, I doubt that this is all of their weaponry, but I woudnt be surprised if it was the bulk of it. As has been suggested, they could very easily restock, probably easier now that eastern europe is not largely controlled by the old USSR.
As for seeing photos and inventories, I would like to know who put forward the two independant witnesses? Were they the agreed choice of all sides? If so, surely what they say should count for something.
And ultimately it doesnt matter a rats arse if the ordinary man on the street (here or in Ireland) believes what the IRA and others have said about decommisioning, what matters is what the respective governments and terror groups believe, and where they go from here.
If these people feel that enough has been done to go forward then thats good enough for me. If I feel they are lying, what the fuck does that matter in the great scheme of things?
Lets hope enough has been done to pacify all sides, so that the violence can stop for good, and ordinary people can go about their daily lives without living in fear.
As for seeing photos and inventories, I would like to know who put forward the two independant witnesses? Were they the agreed choice of all sides? If so, surely what they say should count for something.
And ultimately it doesnt matter a rats arse if the ordinary man on the street (here or in Ireland) believes what the IRA and others have said about decommisioning, what matters is what the respective governments and terror groups believe, and where they go from here.
If these people feel that enough has been done to go forward then thats good enough for me. If I feel they are lying, what the fuck does that matter in the great scheme of things?
Lets hope enough has been done to pacify all sides, so that the violence can stop for good, and ordinary people can go about their daily lives without living in fear.
Well drugs gangs seem to manage even on the other island.gurrier said:
Back in the early 80s it was tricky getting hold of weapons but the walls fall changed all that. Groups like the KLA assembled far bigger arsenals using drug money. The Chechens run a seemingly endless war that way. Even Prod Paras are resonably well armed these days, guns come in via their drug supply lines. Ireland being an island is not difficult to get stuff into and Croatia or Albanian are just a boat ride away.
21st century PIRA is a rich organization (turnover ~$200 Million PA) that runs all the cigarette smuggling in Ireland, has extensve assets in the Southern elite, an existing operation in both Eastern Europe and South America and is also very good friends with Cuban intelligence. It's known PIRA brought in 200 handguns via Florida in 1998; there are rumors of FARC supplied shipments. Given their existing criminal infrastructure, logistically signifigant re-armament would be no harder than smuggling a few boats of fags. It's just a question of will. I don't think the wills there, it would be bad for buisness, but the capability is.
The article is about somebody failing to import a few dozen guns. Consider the following point. How often do you think customs x-ray the spare wheels of cargo vehicles on spec?oi2002 said:
I don't think the Kosovan or Chechen situations are remotely comparable for an almost endless list of reasons.oi2002 said:
Any evidence for this turnover figure? It sounds like a wild over-estimation to me (at least I've never heard anybody claim such a figure before).oi2002 said:
I disagree completely. There is no comparison between smuggling fags and smuggling guns. Apart from the occasional small shipments from the states and the Libyan haul, there is no evidence that the IRA was ever capable of establishing a steady source of weapons and loads of evidence that they were not, despite trying extremely hard. As far as I know they only ever possessed two guns which were capable of penetrating kevlar body armour, once again despite really really wanting to.oi2002 said:
There is also no evidence at all that it is currently easier for guerilla groups to import weapons into Western Europe and considerable evidence that it is far harder.
Consider the following. The islamists are very well resourced and have networks of supporters all over the world, access to vast amounts of weapons in the middle east and desperately want to blow up things in Europe. Thus far there is no evidence that they have managed to smuggle any high explosives or serious quantity of weapons into anywhere in Europe.
Even if I were to believe that the "IRA" have decommissioned their wpns, and I don't, what about the Official IRA, Real IRA, Dissident IRA and Provisional IRA .....whoops nearly forgot the INLA etc etc, they still have their wpns.
There's as much chance of the IRA getting rid of ALL it's weapons as I have of being the next pope.
IIRC the only weapons I've seen "publicily" destroyed were a token few that the prots had.
There's as much chance of the IRA getting rid of ALL it's weapons as I have of being the next pope.
IIRC the only weapons I've seen "publicily" destroyed were a token few that the prots had.
Since you don't seem to know that the IRA and the Provisional IRA are the same organisation, that there is no such organisation as the Dissident IRA and that "etc, etc" refers to exactly zero organisations, we can safely ignore your opinions and file you in the box marked 'idiots'.pin retaining said:
butchersapron said:
On the contrary. I'm not missing the importance of some republicans who have at long last had the fucking wit to realise what a waste of time and human suffering their idiotic violent campaign was.
They deserve to be saluted for understanding the glaringly obvious, at least - namely waging a tribal war on their neighbours who were only families apart and trying to dishonestly call it a national liberation struggle.
And it is hardly surprising if many observers - not just mad unionists like the Paisleyites - remain cynical and doubtful of the rhetoric from Adams et al who are about as revolutionary and socialist as that tit Blair.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yeah, and you really made that point very well by posting:
"For fuck sake tobyjug what is wrong with you?
The IRA has said it has got rid off it's weapons and that should be good enough for anybody.
I mean, it is not like they would tell fibs is it?"
Which is what the quick series of replies was in response to.
"For fuck sake tobyjug what is wrong with you?
The IRA has said it has got rid off it's weapons and that should be good enough for anybody.
I mean, it is not like they would tell fibs is it?"
Which is what the quick series of replies was in response to.
cathal marcs
Well-Known Member
fanta said:
Erm look at the many people from the same 'tribe' as you like the provos killed or were in conflict with. Drug Dealers, Joy Riders, Liquidating the IPLO attempting to take control of INLA prisoers and Sinn ein trying to organise the only busus to the Kesh.
Im not denying there is to an extent a tribal ghetto factor in it all it would be ridiculous but the two tribes theory does not take into account the internal contradictions with in the republican movement ad the fact that the IRA were fighting for a 32 county republic not just basic human rights within Stormont as Revol pointed out. If you think that it was simply 'a tribal war' you seriously do not understand the IRA or its motives.
cathal marcs said:
I think it is mostly a tribal war, despite all the phoney pseudo-left wing rhetoric from the republican movement or the equally nonsensical justification from their loyalist contempories.
What are provocative parades from one side and the other about?
What is going to the bother of painting your local neighbourhood gable-ends and pavements about?
What is getting pissed and bellowing sectarian songs about?
What is it when people are intimidated and even sometimes murdered for having the audacity to have a relationship or get married to someone from the 'other side'?
What is it with the on-going and seemingly never-ending 'it's not our fault it is them'uns fault' mentality?
What is it with the undeniable fact that large sections of both sides simply hate each other with murderous enthusiasm?
What the fuck were horrific massacres like Kingsmill or teh attck on the bookmakers about?
The answer is stupid internecine TRIBAL war. And no amount wishy-washy argument about it being an anti-imperialist freedom struggle will detract from that disgusting fact.
I recall this being quoted by a Brit security wonk on R4 about 6 months ago, its not repeated in the summary but that figure is not hard to get too. The robberies from Gallaghers, the Northern bank and Dublin port accounted for about $60m last year. PIRA is pervasive in Irish crime at ebvery level. Whether they are taxing the Southern drug trade is a moot point, if they are that's a gross under estimate.gurrier said:
PIRA in the 80s was a Terrorist group and less capable of smuggling arms than the criminal empire it is now. It also never fielded more than 200 guys in the ASU's it had no need of more AK47's once the Libyan shipments arrived.gurrier said:
Of fags, drugs, guns and people the last is the hardest to smuggle and lorry loads of people do enter Ireland illegally, we know this as a bunch were found dead a couple of years ago. It's exactly the same infrastructure needed to support the others. On guns it's just a question of sourcing and unlike drugs you've got no easily penetrated distribution network to worry about at the other end.
Getting a Croatian producer to run off a batch of untraceble machine guns is rather harder than asking an Albanian/Croatian/Russian gangster to sell you a couple of hundred looted AKs; that is a matter of knowing the gangster. The East is still flooded with arms; how do you think the Chechens have kept a fairly high intensity war supplied for a decade? I'd qualify that slightly, rare heavy weapons like SAMS and Browning .50s are much harder to source.
Well Richard Reid who had little trouble buying PETN military explosive in Amsterdam . But you are misunderstanding Jihadi networks. They aren't Mafia like kinship structures like PIRA they are fluid, self motivating and autonomous. Unlike PIRA these people aren't professional smugglers (most are distinctly amateur terrorists in comparison) with contacts who'll wave them through customs and Policemen on the payroll. Like the 7/7 bombers they usually aren't even well connected with criminals and there financial resouces are often pitiful.gurrier said:
There so much material floating about in Eastern europe the Iraqis were trying to source it there before the Yanks invaded:
and guess what else was selling like hot cakes in 2002:
The transnational nature of PIRA II's buisness opens up other oppurtunities as well; this Federal Research Division, Library of Congress paper PDF explores some of those activities:
I think the above is conflating separate PIRA and RIRA operations to some extent but the potential is plain.
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