Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
wait a minute - a few days ago you were saying i was a bnp supporter. make your fucking mind up you pig-ignorant piece of shit.
for the record, i've never had any involvement with circa.
International Communist Current public forum on world war two, London 14 November
- Thread starter Alfredo
- Start date
for the record, i've never had any involvement with circa.
Of course there were cases of working class self-defence and class struggle against fascist states during the Second World War, I just don't see that it's helpful to conflate this with the activity of imperialist armies, be they Allies or Axis.
Good to have In Bloom standing up for internationalism. He is right to say that there were class movements during the war and their logic was implicitly and in some cases explicitly against the war - a danger that Churchill recognised regarding the Italian strikes as I mentioned above. Incidentally Churchill said some very complementary things about Mussolini as well in the 1920s, as a man you could work with against the Red Menace.
You can't be in favour of participating in an imperialist war and also in favour of the working class struggle. For example: throughout the war there were strikes in Britain and America as workers tried to defend themselves against the increased exploitation demanded by the war effort. The 'Communist' Parties directly organised strikebreaking (and by the way, despite their rhetoric these same Stalinist parties were not really against imperialist war in the period of the Nazi-Soviet pact, they were just defending the immediate interests of the USSR as a capitalist, imperialist power). CP strikebreaking was entirely logical given their position of sacrificing everything to the war against Hitler.
The discussion at the meeting was good although it mainly focused on the ideology used to justify present-day wars now that there is no 'fascist' or 'Communist' enemy. The problem was that it was mainly between the ICC and sympathisers so there was not enough controversy around the nature of the war itself. We are particularly interested in encouraging anarchist comrades we debate with online to come to our meetings more often.
You can't be in favour of participating in an imperialist war and also in favour of the working class struggle. For example: throughout the war there were strikes in Britain and America as workers tried to defend themselves against the increased exploitation demanded by the war effort. The 'Communist' Parties directly organised strikebreaking (and by the way, despite their rhetoric these same Stalinist parties were not really against imperialist war in the period of the Nazi-Soviet pact, they were just defending the immediate interests of the USSR as a capitalist, imperialist power). CP strikebreaking was entirely logical given their position of sacrificing everything to the war against Hitler.
The discussion at the meeting was good although it mainly focused on the ideology used to justify present-day wars now that there is no 'fascist' or 'Communist' enemy. The problem was that it was mainly between the ICC and sympathisers so there was not enough controversy around the nature of the war itself. We are particularly interested in encouraging anarchist comrades we debate with online to come to our meetings more often.
What infantile shite. No wonder the ICC are such a thorn in the side of the establishment eh.
So the people who took part in the warsaw uprising were they wrong or right?
The infantile shite that you and the likes of Pickmans have come out with on this thread really is sad.
WW2 was fought between countries that could be called imperialist powers but is that the whole story? I dont think so.
The puerile arguement that by backing the war you are against class struggle and for imperialism is farcical.
Yes Winston Churchill had dodgy views but he was not even remotely as dangerous as Hitler or Hirohito. All 3 were products of their time but they were not all the same.
In trying to be clever on this ultra leftists come across as bad as David Irving and all the other nazi apologists who try to say the allies were nearly as bad or just as bad really.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
It's also the kind of discussion that endears the outside world to ideas coming from the left-of-centre.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
is it really really crucial that people think THE RIGHT THING about WW2. I mean it was 70 years ago.
Yes it is. Lessons can be learned from it.
Start with death camps and ultra right wing governments based on hate policies and knowing what happens when you get one.
Add to that the knowledge of what happens in a full scale war and the general bloody misery it causes.
Pity Blair and Bush failed to take note of that.
Ibn Khaldoun
the present is dead, long live the future . . .
Hitler is a BAD MAN!
Ibn Khaldoun
the present is dead, long live the future . . .
It is crucial, rightly or wrongly. This whole discussion is symptomatic of the ideological importance of the interpretation of the conflict.
Mab
Kingston ON Canada
My father made it through the Italian Campaign all up "the boot" of Italy fighting horrible battles with German paratroopers and never talked much about it when I was born. He received shock treatment (insulin treatment) in 1960 but never to part in any remembrance day services. He only said that war was a sin but they had to help stop a greater wrong. He thought it a crime that America went to Iraq. He passed soon after. I believe WW2 fucked my Dad and he never recovered from the horrors. I also believe capitalism is very much to blame and greed.
The Black Hand
Unclean
With this 'debate' I have to take a third position (and I am sorry to disagree with you Pickman after our pleasant chat @ the bookfair). I do not think anarchism should be only another variety of 'ultra leftism' (using the same extreme positions). If it does that it is doomed to permanent irrelevance like the ICC.
Rather, I think the important factor is class consciousness rather than a pure leftism with a perfect take on history but with no participation in the present. In the case of the ICC, they have never and do not fight fascists, so imho their opinions do not count anyway
So, I have time for Balders attempts to feel a populist route through the second world war from a socialist perspective. As it goes, I too have attempted this and it is published in the latest edition of Mayday (issue 4). Unfortunately because I rush released it for the bookfair, there were a few editorial problems with it in the first print run, (1 big one in the second world war article), which I'm going to correct before I print the next 400.
Balders, I will email you the article if you Pm me your email account.
Just for reference to all, MAYDAY 4 if available now with an article on WWII & Popular Front anti fascism in it. PM me a name/address and I will send you one for free
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Just for reference to all, MAYDAY 4 if available now with an article on WWII & Popular Front anti fascism in it. PM me a name/address and I will send you one for free
like it says on the domino's pizza ad, 'giving 'em away'
though i expect you'll be receiving quite a few of them back.
The Black Hand
Unclean
A) Yep, its all circulation Pickman.
B) Why are you wanting a project to fail Pickman? That's not an anarchist attitude. None so far btw
The Black Hand
Unclean
Surely projects should be encouraged and succeed or fail in relation to as wide an audience as possible. They should not be attacked by individuals in a petulent and selfish manner.
There is nothing wrong with a critical attitude, and I encourage it, however in the case of projects it is for new and independent people to discuss, and not the tired old hacks with their prejeudices which is too often the case in U75 at the minute.
If you want a copy of Mayday I will post you it for free Morven, just PM me an/your address.
Mayday issue one is here, but there are issues 2, 3 & 4 now;
http://platypus1917.home.comcast.net/~platypus1917/mayday_uk_issue1_win2007-08.pdf
Do you just post here to piss people off and demotivate people who take assertive actions.
Do you suck off butchers Apron? - dont copy him - he is low grade.
cutandsplice
putting things together
Neither has anyone other than the few poor people who tbh gives them away to.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
tbf though, you do sound like you know absolutely fuck all about all this
The Black Hand
Unclean
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