Cos i knew some mug ( and tbf i was thinking mostly of you and butchers )would try and put a really good counter arguement and end up saying preety much bugger all about the subject and try and show how clever and superior they were.
International Communist Current public forum on world war two, London 14 November
- Thread starter Alfredo
- Start date
Cos i knew some mug ( and tbf i was thinking mostly of you and butchers )would try and put a really good counter arguement and end up saying preety much bugger all about the subject and try and show how clever and superior they were.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
and i suppose that you expected someone to say you were talking shit about the other nazi sympathiser bit.
putting up a counter-argument supposes there is an argument to counter, which i am still waiting for.
Strange cos i thought that you had spent the whole thread trying to prove my point....Generally speaking people who think they know what the allies should have done really to win the War are good to laugh at.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
given that on your own admission you're pig-ignorant of important events within the conflict, not to mention the way that the coalition which defeated hitler, mussolini and hirohito was structured, perhaps you should go and read something about the war instead of trying (and failing) to make a point.
I bet you could write a great book about it.....Have you joined the ICC yet ?
Ibn Khaldoun
the present is dead, long live the future . . .
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you haven't even managed to string together two coherent sentences about it.
Rod Sleeves
New Member
Fucks sake Balders
Sorry, should have posted a link to our website:
http://www.internationalism.org/
Pickman is right to ask for some answers about Dresden, Hiroshima, etc. We would argue, as did our political ancestors during the war, that these were indeed deliberate atrocities which showed that this was an imperialist war on both sides. The terror boming of Germany was as much motivated by the fear of the German working class making a new 1917 as by the need to destroy German war industries: Dresden was not at all a military target in that sense but it did serve the purpose of terrorising the population. Hiroshima was a deliberate atrocity of another kind: Japan was already defeated, but the real aim of using the bomb was to deter Russia's advance towards Japan and the far east. But in both cases, these were cynical war crimes against the civilian populations.
There is a hint in tbaldwin's first post that arguing this way makes you into a Nazi sympathiser. Of course internationalists during the Second World War were accused of being in league with fascism and some were even shot by the Stalinists and other nationalists. But they equally denounced the horrors of fascism and showed that the Allies, for all their 'anti-fascist' tirades, did nothing whatever to save the European Jews and other victims of the Nazi war machine. One of the clearest proofs of this was the Bermuda conference which took place at exactly the same time as the Warsaw ghetto uprising, in 1943: America and Britain decided there to keep the gates to any further Jewish immigration clamped shut.
http://www.internationalism.org/
Pickman is right to ask for some answers about Dresden, Hiroshima, etc. We would argue, as did our political ancestors during the war, that these were indeed deliberate atrocities which showed that this was an imperialist war on both sides. The terror boming of Germany was as much motivated by the fear of the German working class making a new 1917 as by the need to destroy German war industries: Dresden was not at all a military target in that sense but it did serve the purpose of terrorising the population. Hiroshima was a deliberate atrocity of another kind: Japan was already defeated, but the real aim of using the bomb was to deter Russia's advance towards Japan and the far east. But in both cases, these were cynical war crimes against the civilian populations.
There is a hint in tbaldwin's first post that arguing this way makes you into a Nazi sympathiser. Of course internationalists during the Second World War were accused of being in league with fascism and some were even shot by the Stalinists and other nationalists. But they equally denounced the horrors of fascism and showed that the Allies, for all their 'anti-fascist' tirades, did nothing whatever to save the European Jews and other victims of the Nazi war machine. One of the clearest proofs of this was the Bermuda conference which took place at exactly the same time as the Warsaw ghetto uprising, in 1943: America and Britain decided there to keep the gates to any further Jewish immigration clamped shut.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. And even with the benefit of hindsight, on the whole it is a good thing that Hitler did not conquer Europe. I do not think it fair to attack the valiant efforts of our grandparents who felt their very existence was in peril, which it was. Perhaps it would be more respectful if you at least acknowledged the sacrifices they made so you can post your revisionist views.
And you couldnt even say why bombing dresden was wrong....Thank god for comrade Alfredo eh......
Revisionists are people who deny the Holocaust. We do not. What we do deny is that the Nazis alone were responsible.
Neither do we have any disrespect for the people whose lives were sacrificed - on all sides of the imperialist divide. The problem is that they were sacrifices on the altar of capitalism.
Neither do we have any disrespect for the people whose lives were sacrificed - on all sides of the imperialist divide. The problem is that they were sacrifices on the altar of capitalism.
The Black Hand
Unclean
An obscure & minute ultra left, totally irrelevant groupuscule (and always will be) whose major insight consists of the historical 'fact' that 'everythings capitalist, always has been and is therefore wrong'.
The Black Hand
Unclean
With this 'debate' I have to take a third position (and I am sorry to disagree with you Pickman after our pleasant chat @ the bookfair). I do not think anarchism should be only another variety of 'ultra leftism' (using the same extreme positions). If it does that it is doomed to permanent irrelevance like the ICC.
Rather, I think the important factor is class consciousness rather than a pure leftism with a perfect take on history but with no participation in the present. In the case of the ICC, they have never and do not fight fascists, so imho their opinions do not count anyway
So, I have time for Balders attempts to feel a populist route through the second world war from a socialist perspective. As it goes, I too have attempted this and it is published in the latest edition of Mayday (issue 4). Unfortunately because I rush released it for the bookfair, there were a few editorial problems with it in the first print run, (1 big one in the second world war article), which I'm going to correct before I print the next 400.
Balders, I will email you the article if you Pm me your email account.
Rather, I think the important factor is class consciousness rather than a pure leftism with a perfect take on history but with no participation in the present. In the case of the ICC, they have never and do not fight fascists, so imho their opinions do not count anyway
So, I have time for Balders attempts to feel a populist route through the second world war from a socialist perspective. As it goes, I too have attempted this and it is published in the latest edition of Mayday (issue 4). Unfortunately because I rush released it for the bookfair, there were a few editorial problems with it in the first print run, (1 big one in the second world war article), which I'm going to correct before I print the next 400.
Balders, I will email you the article if you Pm me your email account.
a "populist route through the second world war" would presumeably mean supporting the war as a people's war, which is actually the view of most of the bourgeois gangs who organised the carnage.
Internationalism today can only be built on a historical foundation. There are plenty of people, from the Sun to the SWP, arguing for populist routes through today's imperialist wars, eg in Iraq and Afhganistan, even if they support different sides but not so many putting forward an internationalist position against all imperialist wars and powers
Internationalism today can only be built on a historical foundation. There are plenty of people, from the Sun to the SWP, arguing for populist routes through today's imperialist wars, eg in Iraq and Afhganistan, even if they support different sides but not so many putting forward an internationalist position against all imperialist wars and powers
The Black Hand
Unclean
You just don't like people. There were plenty of people, and much historical evidence across countries and diverse political positions, of people prepared to fight against fascism. There is much evidence too as to their informal socialist aspirations. You are a blinkered ultra leftist alfredo, dying (sic) to see what you want to see but denying any contrary evidence or not even contemplating its possibility. That is old and reactionary leftism. Well done.
You go and talk to your 2 mates in a darkened room, as you (ICC) have for the last 30 years. You will NEVER do anything useful.
That's very clever, but long after your tiny grouplet has been forgotten, millions will be commemorating the memory of heroes who fought to the death defending what they believed in. I repeat what I said before; on the whole it is a good thing Hitler did not conquer Europe. Nothing will ever change that perception of most people.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
They were clearly tactical decisions to further a military campaign.
"There were plenty of people, and much historical evidence across countries and diverse political positions, of people prepared to fight against fascism. There is much evidence too as to their informal socialist aspirations"
This is not the issue. The left communists who took part in the mass strikes in Italy in 1943 were certainly fighting against the existing fascist power, but they got no help from the democracies. Anarchists from War Commentary of the time wrote a pamphlet denouncing the British state for deliberately bombing northern cities while the strikes were going on; and Churchill issued his instructions to 'let the Italians stew in their own juice', ie let the fascists repress the uprising before the allied armies advance northwards.
As for the socialist aspirations, they also existed among the millions of workers who fought in the first world war, mobilised by the social democrats and trade unions to fight against 'czarist tyranny' or 'Kaiserism'. Revolutionaries, who genuinely 'like' working people, had the courage to stand against that tide of utterly misdirected 'socialist aspirations' and they did the same in world war two.
This is not the issue. The left communists who took part in the mass strikes in Italy in 1943 were certainly fighting against the existing fascist power, but they got no help from the democracies. Anarchists from War Commentary of the time wrote a pamphlet denouncing the British state for deliberately bombing northern cities while the strikes were going on; and Churchill issued his instructions to 'let the Italians stew in their own juice', ie let the fascists repress the uprising before the allied armies advance northwards.
As for the socialist aspirations, they also existed among the millions of workers who fought in the first world war, mobilised by the social democrats and trade unions to fight against 'czarist tyranny' or 'Kaiserism'. Revolutionaries, who genuinely 'like' working people, had the courage to stand against that tide of utterly misdirected 'socialist aspirations' and they did the same in world war two.
What like bombing London or starting the fucking war in the first place while murdering who knows how many in camps?
Stalin would want to be a tad quiet about that as he was doing his share of mass murder as well.
Dresden was a major communications hub and needed to go.
The atomic bombs saved god knows how many people.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Rubbish. Revolutionaries encourage revolution within the popular masses, they do not isolate themselves and/or self sacrifice themselves, and then gloat about their purity after the event. That is utopian liberalism, not Marxism.
Black Hand, as a 'marxist' or 'anarchist', perhaps, instead of getting hot under the colour about my utopian liberalism, you should think about answering some of the recent posts that have apologised for the cold blooded slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians in Dresden, Hamburg and Hiroshima for 'tactical' reasons
Fucking stupid post.
It's fucking war. When attacked by a seriously vicious enemy, you do whatever you can to finish them asap.
Yep, civilians died as they did in London and other British cities. So fucking what? Moan about those attacks as well or first.
It's a fucking war not a 'be nice' competition.
The atomic bombs saved how many lives? The invasion of the Japanese mainland would have been a fucking bloodbath. See what happened on the islands. Those who moan about the use of the bombs always manage to forget about that.
Bunch of fucking leftie idiots who are just trying to score a few points but rewriting history. Silly cunts to a man.
Is this idea that fighting the second world war was bad a recent thing from elements of the left ?
Has this been the position of them for a while or is it just the sort of noise that emenates from a corpse after it has been decomposing for a while and the vapours that build up internally have to escape ?
Has this been the position of them for a while or is it just the sort of noise that emenates from a corpse after it has been decomposing for a while and the vapours that build up internally have to escape ?
No deary, the idea is that the second world war was bad. The decision to fight or not fight wars is generally not left to the likes of us.
Did anyone anywhere say WW2 was not bad? Deary.
People saw country after country fall to the Nazis, and felt their very existence was under threat, which it was. I don't blame them for doing whatever was necessary to defend themselves. I would have done too, as most normal people would. The political posturing of some after the event sound uneasily like positions adopted by neo Nazis.
People saw country after country fall to the Nazis, and felt their very existence was under threat, which it was. I don't blame them for doing whatever was necessary to defend themselves. I would have done too, as most normal people would. The political posturing of some after the event sound uneasily like positions adopted by neo Nazis.
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