Infiltration of groups, movements and parties: How much is it happening?

[Fullyplumped]

You are a spelling nazi. And a bad character actor to boot. I didnt see the rule on Urban 75 that said ' correct grammer and spelling only' But i am sure the intellectual commisars such as yourself on this site will soon be whinging away to get one.

It is an absolute, incontrovertible rule of the Internet that anyone who complains about another poster's spelling or grammar will make a mistake when complaining. See, just liek that.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

So that's your response is it to someone knows a damn sight more about the origins and current activities of the 9/11 truth movement in this country including the activities of David Shayler and Annie Machon than you ever will.

1) Having been studying/analysing Shayler/Machon's antics for nine years, and also what MI5 got up to while they were members (see 'Turning Up the Heat:MI5 After the Cold War [1994]), the idea that you (whoever you are) "Know more about the activities of Shayler & Machon" than I "ever will" is ludicrous, at best.

2) As regards the 9/11 movement in the UK & these two creatures, in the current issue 7 of Notes From the Borderland Paul Stott & Heidi Svenson devoted 5 pages to expounding/reporting on the fruits of basic elementary research that has thus eluded the conspiraloons. They looked at the reasons given by Shayler/Machon for their damascene conversion to the 9/11 cause in early 2005, and analysed the consistency, veracity, and plausibility of those reasons. Unsurprisingly (if sadly) Stott & Svenson found those reasons did not/do not 'hold water'.

3) Not unreasonably, therefore, Stott & Svenson sought explanations for the antics/utterances of Machon/Shayler in relation to their past multiple lies/evasions. In that sense, there is consistency from Machon/Shayler, but not of a positive kind.

4) There is, in principle, an analytical distinction to be made between the rights/wrongs/validity of the 9/11 Truth Movement and the presence of Shayler/Machon within it. The fact, however, that both have risen in so short a time to such prominent roles, their bona fides seemingly accepted without question by participants, is a sorry reflection on the stunted critical capacities of most 9/11 Truth people. Unless/until you show yourselves capable of questioning/challenging/excluding real live spooks/liars/disinformation peddlers like Shayler/Machon, on those grounds alone you are, and will remain, a laughing stock (at best).

 

[Fullyplumped]

Do Ms Machon and Mr Shayler have proper jobs? If not, does anyone know how they make a living? Just wondering!

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Do Ms Machon and Mr Shayler have proper jobs? If not, does anyone know how they make a living? Just wondering!

You aren't the only ones to wonder--when questioned on this during my debate with him, Shayler pleaded utter poverty/extended indebtedness. As my mother used to say "And the band played believe me if you like"....

 

[Fullyplumped]

You aren't the only ones to wonder--when questioned on this during my debate with him, Shayler pleaded utter poverty/extended indebtedness. As my mother used to say "And the band played believe me if you like"....

Whowould lend HIM money?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Do Ms Machon and Mr Shayler have proper jobs? If not, does anyone know how they make a living? Just wondering!

They sell books and get paid for talking about their experiences and their books. They are probably right though, they won't get very rich doing that.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Whowould lend HIM money?

Special Branch (Regional)--he really likes them, although when questioned appeared to have amnesia concerning their role

 

[8den]

You are a spelling nazi. And a bad character actor to boot.

Ah to be jaysus, now, sure you've not seen me drunken irish peasant routine, or my eldery jewish grandmother; "oi these M15 types what chuptzah."

Bad character actor, I mean WTF?

I didnt see the rule on Urban 75 that said ' correct grammer and spelling only' But i am sure the intellectual commisars such as yourself on this site will soon be whinging away to get one.

Oh please. Do you see me adding commas and correcting your spelling all the time? No. I just have to take with a pinch of salt someone telling me the real deal about "X" organisation when they cannot even spell the name of the group. (And I really think you may have trouble spelling the letter "X")

Where's your evidence that MI5 send a bunch of straight out of "Uni" types to infiltrate left wing groups?

"I say Tristin, I think these Anarcho types may have rumbled our cover!"

"Gosh, really what gave us away?"

"I think it's when we told them we'd leafleted the polo match and got a jolly good response"

"Bugger, quick get the suicide pills so....."



Or where's your evidence that the media is riddled with MI5.

 

[kenny g]

absolutely pathetic .

 

[Fullyplumped]

absolutely pathetic .

What is?

 

[zoltan]

I KNow people in the "business" - though im not one of them - I did ask a similar question a little while back about the risk of Left groups within the UK & whats the percieved level of risk?

the answer was - not much. I think theres about 4 people in the Internal security service who work on the left nowadays - bigger fish to fry I suppose. You are safe.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

So that's your response is it to someone knows a damn sight more about the origins and current activities of the 9/11 truth movement in this country including the activities of David Shayler and Annie Machon than you ever will.

post 62 above by myself fully answers you--why is someone as purportedly omniscient as yourself reluctant to answer? Kidnapped by aliens perchance?

 

[JimPage]

i suspect that some of the goings on in the SSP at the moment have been state inspired for one- on both sides of the arguements.

historically, the far right have been thoroughly infiltrated at various points, by various leaders who cause trouble, cause a split then disappear to valhalla a few months later

the english left though must be the worst- by the simple tactic of making an issue of the smallest point of difference and casuing a split over it. just how many socialist/communist parties are there to the left of labour? and why did they split in the first place

 

[brasicritique]

NIce try 8den. I really think you should try to read more than Argos ordering slips yer xxxxxx egit

 

[lostexpectation]

prime object for inflitration SMASHEDO campaign... successful long term campaign against a corporation

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were elements from Thames House hanging around Barking and Dagenham at the moment because of the BNP issue.

 

[8den]

NIce try 8den. I really think you should try to read more than Argos ordering slips yer xxxxxx egit

Anything else to add, any more evidence of Mi5 inflitration of the press, or left wing groups?

No? Just reduced to chucking in insults you got in your christmas cracker?

Fair enough so....

 

[brasicritique]

Er yes more to add was there not a news article recently that said the british secret services had problems infiltrating certain subversive groups because they where overwelmingly white and middle class? i think there was still like i said you need to read more and where do you think they get sent to learn their trade? Some sort of holographic suite. Really my child you have an I but the Q seems to be missing

 

[8den]

Er yes more to add was there not a news article recently that said the british secret services had problems infiltrating certain subversive groups because they where overwelmingly white and middle class? i think there was

Does that prove the secret service infliltrate leftwing groups and the press? No. Just because they could infiltrate the SWP or WSN or any other group, doesn't mean they are.

Is that really the best that you've got?

still like i said you need to read more and where do you think they get sent to learn their trade? Some sort of holographic suite. Really my child you have an I but the Q seems to be missing

And the christmas cracker insults still keep coming.

Do you really think there are a set of skills you can pick up from infiltrating a SWP meeting that are transferable for when you are infiltrating an Al Qaedia cell?

 

[sparticus]

Hi Larry

Wonder if you and your crack team of researchers would care to comment on this article

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/07/345958.html

Perhaps you know Shelly?

 

[Ryoma]

To make sure it remains as ineffective as it already is, perhaps?

But I don't think the Left need the State's help to remain ineffective. Peter Wright of "Spycatcher" fame famously described the Left as about as threatening as a pondful of ducks. Yes, revolution is clearly illegal and if one was ever likely in this country then revolutionary groups would face state bans and harrassment. I would be surprised if state agents still operated inside groups like the SWP. This is an open organisation who talk revolution but act in a throughly reformist and conservative manner. They in no way threaten the status-quo. During the 70's and 80's, at a time of industrial militancy and when politics were skewed by the Cold War, the main socialist groups would have been infiltrated but today this would not be the case. The main 'security' agencies have their hands well and truly full with these thousands of Islamist militants who are supposedly active in this country (Islamists who wouldn't go within a mile of a RESPECT meeting unless it was to disrupt it).

 

[Patty]

I would be surprised if state agents still operated inside groups like the SWP. This is an open organisation who talk revolution but act in a throughly reformist and conservative manner.

Do they talk revolution? I thought they were too interested in courting self appointed "community leaders" and running "open campigns" (AKA class colaberation) to talk of revolution.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Hi Larry

Wonder if you and your crack team of researchers would care to comment on this article

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/07/345958.html

Perhaps you know Shelly?

As the article is hidden, and I haven't the facility (or time) to uncode that, no I can't comment.

...other than to say it is utterly predictable that a time-wasting troll tosspot like yourself should seek to insinuate that we are something to do with it.

What I do know is that on the mark thomas forum Heidi Svenson has made an intervention, and on the 9/11 UK site Paul Stott has--both members of the NFB 'team', and neither hiding behind absurd pseudonyms like yourself. Now go and give yourself a hand-shandy while you're waiting for the next pod-flight, tosser.

 

[brasicritique]

Does that prove the secret service infliltrate leftwing groups and the press? No. Just because they could infiltrate the SWP or WSN or any other group, doesn't mean they are.



Do you really think there are a set of skills you can pick up from infiltrating a SWP meeting that are transferable for when you are infiltrating an Al Qaedia cell?

Yes.Unless you are suggesting that theres an Al-Qaedia fan club that can give you instant access. No my mistake, field operatives are just naturally gifted and do not need any sort of hands on training at all. As for cells your brain lacks them its a cracker its been fun my little wind up toy.

 

[8den]

Does that prove the secret service infliltrate leftwing groups and the press? No. Just because they could infiltrate the SWP or WSN or any other group, doesn't mean they are.

It took you four days to come up with a rolleyes?

A rolly eyes isn't a rebuttal, it's like I said most left wing groups want to feel they are being inflitrated because if they were infiltrated that'd mean the state wants to keep on eye on them, therefore their pseudo revolutionary posturing was getting noticed.

Generally it always comes down to this, you ask a leftwinger to give proof of this inflitrate they roll their eyes and sigh patronisingly, and go "of course the state is inflitrating us" But never offer any proof.

It's ego inflating wank.

Do you really think there are a set of skills you can pick up from infiltrating
Yes.Unless you are suggesting that theres an Al-Qaedia fan club that can give you instant access. No my mistake, field operatives are just naturally gifted and do not need any sort of hands on training at all. As for cells your brain lacks them its a cracker its been fun my little wind up toy.

"I say Tristian it's jolly good luck we spent all that time, hanging around with SWPers chanting revolutionary slogans, cause now we're completely prepared to inflitrate lower level fundamentalist muslim groups"

Oh bless, you and your mates can keep believing the state has spies on you, trust me your chanting and flag waving posturing, in your bed sit, isn't that important.

But hey whatever you need to give yourself a semblance of self worth, must be a good thing.

 

[greenman]

From experience of being part of an organisation that attracted the unwelcome attention of the security services, when the state felt like it needed to undermine and smear the libertarian left in Britain in the 80's and 90's (when they were gaining some significant audience through involvement in various disputes, the poll tax struggle and anti-fascism) and also attack the broader social movements by associating them with 'lunatic extremists', they did this not primarily through infiltration, but through a series of media hate campaigns and 'exposes' led by a number of security-service friendly journalists/agents of influence.
Generally there has been more reliance on what they call 'Sigint' (Surveillance/communications intercept etc) than 'Humint' (informers/agents) in the period running up to TWOT - the word is that TWOT fatally exposed Western intelligence agency reliance on sigint and neglect of humint, which they have since scrambled to correct. It is likely however, that left groups in Britain are far more likely still to be largely monitored through sigint than humint - and any 'corrective action' applied through media manipulation and Cointelpro type rumour mongering and paranoia stimulation rather than long term infiltration (which may still however exist in some of the larger groups and orgs - i.e CND, STW, Greenpeace, SSP, some of the more radical and strategic unions like the RMT etc or the more clandestine organisations - ALF, EF etc)

 

[DaveCinzano]

FYI:

Did police spy Mark Jenner help prevent justice in the David Ewin murder case?

Mark Jenner, AKA ‘Mark Cassidy’, was an undercover police spy deployed in north London in the mid-1990s. He had a particular interest in construction workers (i.e. blacklist-related stuff), police accountability campaigns such as that run by Hackney Community Defence Association, Irish republicans and Anti-Fascist Action.

From Mark Metcalf's blog

Cross-posted because this cuts across various threads

 

[likesfish]

They probably take an intrest in groups who make a lot of noise or who appear to be very secerative just in case.

 

[redcogs]

Just a broad brush observation: Following the defeat of the great mineworkers strike the government were able to press ahead with their economic restructuring measures, confident that they had severely injured the main players - specifically the NUM. But, from the establishments view, after early 1985, they probably still had to proceed with a significant degree of uncertainty, because their task (of emasculating socialist influence within the working class movement) was not yet complete. If this analysis is correct, it suggests that state monitoring of 'subversives' would remain as an important aspect of their general activities for some time to come. We know something about the involvement of spooks in the NUM, but my guess is that there is much that remains hidden, particularly regarding surveillence of Scargill - don't forget there are literally volumes of files relating to him and his activities within MI5/6 vaults. It will be fascinating to know more if a Scargill memoir emerges.

That said, i reckon that the left have tended towards exaggeration of the extent of direct state infiltration of their organisations. Which of course isn't the same as saying there has been none, but rather that it is worth recognising the extent to which the state was able to rely upon the employers and their networks to carry out a 'cleansing' of left influence across both private and public sectors. Again we know that the instances of famous victimisations of the later 20thC were considerable in number, from the Shrewsbury pickets, to Red Robbo, to the SWP's John Deason being sacked from a strategically sensitive (telecommunications) industry, that isn't to forget others like Yunus Baksh or all those blacklisted in the building trades. These were only some of the visible sackings that occurred in the 'anti radical' offensive that proceeded apace, and i bet many who come here know of plenty other instances of people been pushed out of employment for being dissenting socialist voices - certainly i know of three people who were 'neutralised through dismissal' by the same employers as Deason during the same period.

Probably today the left is so fragmented and damaged (to a considerable extent by the success of the above sketched employers offensive) that the state can be relaxed and keep only a cursory eye upon developments. That wasn't true of quite a portion of the late 20th C.

 

[Frances Lengel]

I've never been convinced by the ACAB line. But APAC sounds about right to me - Anarchists Probably Are Coppers btw.