Industrial music and its relationship(??) to fascism

[bamalama]

Stewart is well-known for being a contrarian and for his fondness for being at the forefront of new trends, which sometimes makes him come across as a bit of a poseur.
He also likes to suck off goats.

That's got to be a risky pastime...howd'ye get the goat on its back?

 

[butchersapron]

Wadruna wadruna going one thousand runes an hour

 

[butchersapron]

Wardruna Wardruna, going one thousand runes an hour

 

[scalyboy]

and as regards all that paganism bollocks, a major part of that stuff is the complete absence of the concept of mercy , in contrast with the judeo christian belief in the meek inheriting the earth , love they neighbour etc

The notion that paganism = lack of mercy is a projection by these idiots that is not attested in archaeological findings. See, for instance, the recent 'Meet the Ancestors' TV prog with archaeologist Julian Richards, who had excavated an Iron Age (i.e. pagan) graveyard. The skeletons all bore evidence of some illness or disability, and he made the point that one woman in particular would have lived to a fair old age, whilst being paralysed from the waist down due to a bone disorder. This indicated that the rest of her community would have cared for her, and not expelled her from their village to die.

Possibly this pagans = pitiless elite notion may have come originally from Christian propaganda, but has been twisted by the neo-Nazis as an (imaginary) tool with which to further their own anti-Christian/anti-Semitic/anti-Muslim agendas.

 

[scalyboy]

I know a bit about pagansim (I read some of the classics as a teenager) and plenty about metal, and I don't see how being into paganism would make you a racist. As a pagan you might feel that Christianity is a Middle Eastern interloper, but I'm pretty sure the forebears of all the European paganism probably came out of that neck of the woods too, around the same time as agriculture.

Interestingly enough, there's a theory gaining ground that European witchcraft was heavily influenced by Sufism and a Berber cult which featured some familiar aspects - the Moon, horns, a ram or goat's head etc. It's argued that these Middle Eastern elements were introduced into Europe via Moorish Spain in the early Middle Ages.

I recently came across the website of a Celtic pagan group which seemed to be suggesting that theirs was a more 'pure' and indigenous tradition than witchcraft, as it hadn't been diluted with these North African/Islamic elements! Ignoring the successive waves of Celtic immigration to Britain that give the lie to an unmixed 'Celtic' culture

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wardruna Wardruna, going one thousand runes an hour

With the radio on?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

A new piece on Who Makes The Nazis:

Queers to shut down Death In June in San Francisco on September 13th / DIJ exposed by queer anti-fascist

Douglas P's quotes are possibly his most reactionary and moronic yet.

 

[Chick Webb]

 

[Casually Red]

The notion that paganism = lack of mercy is a projection by these idiots that is not attested in archaeological findings. See, for instance, the recent 'Meet the Ancestors' TV prog with archaeologist Julian Richards, who had excavated an Iron Age (i.e. pagan) graveyard. The skeletons all bore evidence of some illness or disability, and he made the point that one woman in particular would have lived to a fair old age, whilst being paralysed from the waist down due to a bone disorder. This indicated that the rest of her community would have cared for her, and not expelled her from their village to die.

Possibly this pagans = pitiless elite notion may have come originally from Christian propaganda, but has been twisted by the neo-Nazis as an (imaginary) tool with which to further their own anti-Christian/anti-Semitic/anti-Muslim agendas.

Ive no idea were it comes from . What Im referring to is all that Odinism bollocks and the rest the nazis and the dodgies have been following since the 20s right up to today . I didnt mean to imply that all pagans were merciless bastards . Because they plainly werent .

 

[barney_pig]

You should know.

Historically accurate too, according to Geoffrey of Monmouth

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ive no idea were it comes from . What Im referring to is all that Odinism bollocks and the rest the nazis and the dodgies have been following since the 20s right up to today . I didnt mean to imply that all pagans were merciless bastards . Because they plainly werent .

Bit before the '20s, to be fair. The Norse Paganism thing (a bit of an antithesis to the other main element of Germanic racial myth - the Teutonic cultus, when you think about it) was alive and well in terms of "racial politics" as far back as the mid-19th century. It was helped along by the resurgence of academic interest in "Germanic" folk myth that possibly reached its apotheosis with Viktor Rydberg's scholarly work (still "mined" with tedious regularity by Euro-proponents of racial politics) as opposed to his novels.

 

[ouchmonkey]

Wadruna wadruna going one thousand runes an hour

I used to drive a Renault Wardruna,

black metallic paint, gears went up to 11, drove like the wind obvs

 

[intersol32]

A new piece on Who Makes The Nazis:

Queers to shut down Death In June in San Francisco on September 13th / DIJ exposed by queer anti-fascist

Douglas P's quotes are possibly his most reactionary and moronic yet.

That's a shame. I've seen Death in June a couple of times, and think their 'Operation Hummingbird' album is outstanding. The interviews on Youtube are usually quite intelligent, insightful etc and I've never noticed any really outrageous comments.

I'd be cautious when quoting anything from that "Who Makes the Nazis?" blog though.

The stuff the author spouts as 'fact' is quite often incorrect and misinformed. For example he tried to claim that an old photo from a Fascist leafletting contained an image of Tony Wakeford from Sol Invictus/DiJ (Wakeford admits as a young lad he was a member of the NF and states that "it was the worst mistake of my life"). When it was pointed out that other people in the photo had been incorrectly named, the blog author said words to the effect that "it didn't matter, they're still Nazis". To which someone then said that they didn't think the guy pointed out was Wakeford either. He replied that he was only "alleging" that it was. So pretty shoddy journalism and research is definitely the order of the day here.

Other stuff is he reckoned that a neo-folk CD had an "Iron Cross" on the front, which by checking on Amazon you could easily see it hadn't. It was then pointed out by commentators that the Iron Cross wasn't a Nazi symbol anyway (a Nazi Iron Cross has the swastika at its center) - he wasn't aware of this.

He has a consistent hard-on for Tony Wakeford which I suspect is more personal than political. Even when it's been underlined that Wakeford these days has quite left-wing politics, and has stated his dismay at those espousing fascist views, the blog author has tried to twist and turn in order to distract from his glaring cock ups. Same with David Tibet and Current 93, even though their album "Thunder Perfect Mind" has a song dedication "For my father, who fought Hitler".

To quote from a Tony Wakeford interview (full interview here: http://souciant.com/2012/12/from-crisis-to-sol-invictus/)

"Some ”artists” seem to be in it for overtly party political reasons and frankly I have no interest in playing on the same bill or being connected to cranks who hang out with Holocaust deniers, and shill for Islamist bigots, etc. Thankfully, the far right in Britain at the moment are pathetic, but in certain other parts of the world, they are a lot more dangerous. Individuals can believe what they like, and I am against censorship and banning, but when people are getting killed for who they sleep with, or having the wrong stamp in their passport, I think it’s maybe time for a little less ambiguity?"

The Sol Invictus cover of 'The Blackleg Miner" is great by the way.

From my recent knowledge the blog creator has also been contacted by people who are considering legal action if he doesn't retract some of the articles.

Basically I put people like this and Stewart Home into the category of far-left eccentrics. The kind of blokes who if they turn up standing next to you at a demo you think "oh for fucks sake!" because you know in the middle of it they'll probably start reading poetry out loud and have a massive erection in their joggers.

On the point of industrial bands "being extreme" - it's not big, and it's not clever. You can't get more "extreme" than some blokes crashing aeroplanes into the twin towers, so I think all that stuff (album covers with a cock on it, a nun in leathers blah blah) is all a bit redundant.

 

[killer b]

oh dear.

 

[TruXta]

start reading poetry out loud and have a massive erection in their joggers

The fuck kinda demos do you go to then?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Clearly WMTN isn't above criticism. My experience is that they are happy to correct errors. I've even had an article published on there which criticises something else they published.

Wakeford has lied for so long that I doubt he even knows what he thinks himself. If people like his music despite this, then fair enough I guess.

He seemed fine having twats like Andrew King in his band until this article appeared in 2011 though:
http://www.whomakesthenazis.com/2011/06/andrew-king-and-traditionalism.html

He's either wised up and rejected this stuff or has got cleverer at covering it up. I don't know which, and ultimately there is only one person who does.

ETA:

1. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that the person on the left of this photo isn't Tony Wakeford. The precise identities of the others are open to question but nobody is denying that it is a fascist paper sale on Brick Lane.

2. David Tibet has clearly had a boner for some dodgy stuff in the past but I don't think any article on WMTN has actually said he is a fascist. I don't think he is.

3. People have threatened the blog with all sorts of things, but it is still there.

 

[eoin_k]

With the radio on?

He'll be doggin' on the bonnet of your hummah hummah next.

 

[intersol32]

Clearly WMTN isn't above criticism. My experience is that they are happy to correct errors. I've even had an article published on there which criticises something else they published.

Wakeford has lied for so long that I doubt he even knows what he thinks himself. If people like his music despite this, then fair enough I guess.

He seemed fine having twats like Andrew King in his band until this article appeared in 2011 though:
http://www.whomakesthenazis.com/2011/06/andrew-king-and-traditionalism.html

He's either wised up and rejected this stuff or has got cleverer at covering it up. I don't know which, and ultimately there is only one person who does.

ETA:

1. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that the person on the left of this photo isn't Tony Wakeford. The precise identities of the others are open to question but nobody is denying that it is a fascist paper sale on Brick Lane.

2. David Tibet has clearly had a boner for some dodgy stuff in the past but I don't think any article on WMTN has actually said he is a fascist. I don't think he is.

3. People have threatened the blog with all sorts of things, but it is still there.

I think my point about the WMTN site is that the guy has a tendency to publish before he's researched his facts properly. If you read through the blog it seems to happen that quite a lot of people on there pull him on various errors.

I guess that wouldn't be so bad if they weren't putting people's reputations on the line and attributing an ideology that they may not hold.

Unfortunately if the story has already run, then you're immediately having to defend yourself. Sort of "prove you're not a Nazi". Which is pretty shit to be honest. Especially if you're then having to gain a retraction after someone has been sloppy in their reporting.

Just as an example, don't know if you remember when former boyband heart-throb Ronan Keating was alleged in various tabloids to have had a homosexual affair with Irish Musician Bap Kennedy. He eventually had to go on TV to issue a press statement saying that he wasn't gay. Although I'm sure there are quite a few folks out there who are like "yeah mate, no smoke without fire".

I think blogs like this can be even worse because they're meant to be anti-fascist resources, and there's (maybe a naive) trust in people to get things right. Someone maybe in the future getting physically attacked, dragged off stage, or even just having their gigs shut down because of a rumour (or outright lie) just discredits anti-fascists in the long term by making them appear like hysterical twats.

Just from a personal point of view; imagine if Searchlight had been allowed to keep running with their bollocks in the 1990's about those of us in Class War at the time being Fascists?

To my understanding, and experience, if you're going to start outing Fascists and hence be more effective in dealing with them...you have to do all that you possibly can to get the facts straight - not rely on your 'comments' section to do the work for you.

 

[killer b]

the dodginess of death in June & sol invictus are well documented elsewhere though. Like their music by all means, but dont try and excuse or ignore their shit politics. they only have themselves to blame for the shit that comes their way.

 

[intersol32]

the dodginess of death in June & sol invictus are well documented elsewhere though. Like their music by all means, but dont try and excuse or ignore their shit politics. they only have themselves to blame for the shit that comes their way.

I agree with that completely. You can't exactly use an SS Totenkopf (style) logo and not be expected to get a certain amount of shit or make dodgy comments in interviews to sound outrageous or provocative. But at the same time I'd expect a high degree of reliability and accuracy from those people who want to critique those things. Make a couple of false accusations and it not only reveals your own ignorance, it also means people consider you to be an unreliable source of info.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I think my point about the WMTN site is that the guy has a tendency to publish before he's researched his facts properly. If you read through the blog it seems to happen that quite a lot of people on there pull him on various errors.

I guess that wouldn't be so bad if they weren't putting people's reputations on the line and attributing an ideology that they may not hold.

I have some sympathy with this, and the 2nd piece I wrote for WMTN was pointing out numerous errors in an ANL leaflet and saying that this undermined anti-fascism.

Having said that, I think it is almost certain that errors will be made in this area. You've got people many of whom are well dodgy or have dodgy associations who manage to survive precisely because they are covert about it. There may never be a 'smoking gun' unless someone steps forward and says "hang on, this is a bit iffy". But once that has happened, others can come forward with their own info and slowly the pieces in the jigsaw fall into place. Of course part of that has to be admitting when errors are made.

I think people defending this stuff can easily dismiss WMTN on the basis of a few minor errors, but I think they would be wrong to do so.It's a mixed bag but there is enough good material there now to allow people to make up their own minds.

I'm less fussed about neofolk gigs getting shut down - I don't think there is an immediate risk (or much risk at all) to communities which host them, which there definitely was with Blood and Honour gigs.

 

[intersol32]

I have some sympathy with this, and the 2nd piece I wrote for WMTN was pointing out numerous errors in an ANL leaflet and saying that this undermined anti-fascism.

Having said that, I think it is almost certain that errors will be made in this area. You've got people many of whom are well dodgy or have dodgy associations who manage to survive precisely because they are covert about it. There may never be a 'smoking gun' unless someone steps forward and says "hang on, this is a bit iffy". But once that has happened, others can come forward with their own info and slowly the pieces in the jigsaw fall into place. Of course part of that has to be admitting when errors are made.

I think people defending this stuff can easily dismiss WMTN on the basis of a few minor errors, but I think they would be wrong to do so.It's a mixed bag but there is enough good material there now to allow people to make up their own minds.

I'm less fussed about neofolk gigs getting shut down - I don't think there is an immediate risk (or much risk at all) to communities which host them, which there definitely was with Blood and Honour gigs.

I think you've summed it up very well there. I noticed your post about the ANL leaflet and thought that was another example of the danger inherent in people acting on bogey info. I also agree that the threat from the neo-folk scene isn't the same as B+H, the latter of which was specifically geared unashamedly towards National Socialist ideas.

From what I can tell with the neo-folk thing, is that at least there seems enough people who enjoy it who wouldn't tolerate an outright Nazi influence - and whenever it has risen its head people have said "hold on, fuck that". Even Stormfront are saying that these gigs are not White Nationalist events (too lefty, especially on the subjects of homosexuality apparently!).

Thankfully many people in the Industrial scene have wised-up too and seem to know that flirting with Fascism isn't as acceptable as some maybe thought it was during the early 80's.

Again, we are talking about a very small musical subculture. I'm probably more concerned about the acceptability and influence of flagrant misoginy and homophobia in most Rap and Hip Hop than I am neo-folk or industrial artists.

 

[spw]

Industrial music reminds me of the year 1987. One reason it may remind you of facism is because it has a dark vibe. The Nazi's are portrayed that way in the movies.

 

[killer b]

of course! it's the dark vibe - how could we be so blind.

 

[butchersapron]

Industrial music reminds me of the year 1987. One reason it may remind you of facism is because it has a dark vibe. The Nazi's are portrayed that way in the movies.

Portrayed? Was the reality so different?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I think you've summed it up very well there. I noticed your post about the ANL leaflet and thought that was another example of the danger inherent in people acting on bogey info. I also agree that the threat from the neo-folk scene isn't the same as B+H, the latter of which was specifically geared unashamedly towards National Socialist ideas.

I think some people involved with neofolk are interested in spreading fascist philosophies, others are interested in normalising fascist aesthetics and others aren't bothered by any of it or are oblivious. Which is precisely why people have to be careful when criticising it, as you say.

The threat it poses is a cultural one rather than "control of the streets" or "march and grow" but you can see the effects of this in small ways. It is worth keeping an eye on imo, but not being obsessed with it (although current and former fans do tend to be obsessive types )

 

[ska invita]

Industrial music reminds me of the year 1987. One reason it may remind you of facism is because it has a dark vibe. The Nazi's are portrayed that way in the movies.

Comedy poster is comedy - welcome (back) to the boards

 

[Idris2002]

Comedy poster is comedy - welcome (back) to the boards

The importance of being Earnest?

 

[frogwoman]

stop hating faces

 

[andysays]

Industrial music reminds me of the year 1987. One reason it may remind you of facism is because it has a dark vibe. The Nazi's are portrayed that way in the movies.