Independence for Wales?

[William of Walworth]

That poll's a shocker ... I always knew Welsh-independence support was low, but that's vanishing-point low ...

 

[Tankus]

That's 'cause they are all in Englund and on here ..looking at 75's poll results..

Think the Scottish ref drove home the realities and the issues to even many of the "just how welsh are you" crowd , too !

 

[Plumdaff]

That poll's a shocker ... I always knew Welsh-independence support was low, but that's vanishing-point low ...

I'm not. Support was already low and it was taken right after the Scottish results. The UKIP support is worse.

 

[William of Walworth]

Plumdaff : Not shocked you mean? I suppose I'm not particularly, either. All I meant was the extreme low-level of support for Welsh independence was a shocker. Agreed, the timing was majorly significant though.

 

[Tankus]

Nope ...I live in the vale ....UKIps runs a bit higher .........fracking going to increasingly cost the cons a lot of votes too

 

[farmerbarleymow]

And you think the Westminster government have been the people who have always had our best interests at heart here?

Westminster doesn't have the best interests of most of England at heart, let alone Wales, Scotland and NI.

 

[ddraig]

http://dailywales.net/2014/09/24/the-truth-about-bbc-wales-daft-3-welsh-independence-poll/

The claim made by BBC Wales in its coverage of an ICM survey was:

“Support for Welsh independence has fallen to its lowest recorded level in the wake of the Scottish referendum, according to a poll for BBC Wales.

“The survey, carried out days after Scotland voted “No”, found 3% wanted Wales to be independent.”

But it doesn’t show that only three percent support independence. The people surveyed were responding to a multiple choice question with seven different options.

The specific wording was this:

Which of these statements comes closest to your view?

The answer options are then:

– Wales should become independent, separate from the UK
– The Welsh Assembly should have more powers than it currently has
– The powers it currently has are sufficient and should remain as it is now
– The Welsh Assembly should have fewer powers than it currently has
– The Assembly should be abolished and Wales governed directly from Westminster
– None of these
– Don’t Know

So the survey results found that 49 percent opted for ‘more powers’ and three percent selected the ‘separate from the UK’ option.

But it’s factually incorrect to suggest that those wanting more powers were also rejecting Welsh independence.​

Professor Roger Scully of the Welsh Governance Centre supplied advice on wording for the various poll questions. He expressed surprise at the way BBC Wales presented the data as a negative story about Welsh independence.

He said:

“I was slightly surprised to see the emphasis on the fall in support for independence, given that it was only a change within the margin of error from their last poll (5% down to 3%).

“I thought the story was really in the 49% supporting more powers, and the details on which more powers are being supported. But that’s a matter for the BBC.”

It is worth noting that as well as advising BBC Wales on the poll, Professor Scully was also the academic chosen to provide the analysis.

 

[butchersapron]

So the story is the support for independence could possibly be 5‰

Or 1%

 

[editor]

Slowly slowly moving ahead:

For the first time in its history, the Welsh parliament will on Wednesday debate a motion on independence for Wales.

The debate in the Senedd has been called by nationalist party Plaid Cymru on the back of opinion polls showing increased support for breaking away from the UK over the course of the coronavirus outbreak.

The most recent survey found a record high 25 per cent backing for independence — well short of the 54 per cent reported in Scotland but four points up since January.

Plaid leader Adam Price gave the Labour-led administration in Cardiff credit for showing independence from Westminster during the pandemic, with the Welsh response differing markedly from the approach in England.

The regular Welsh Barometer poll found in June that 62 per cent felt the administration in Cardiff was handling the crisis well, compared to only 34 per cent for the UK government.

Mr Price said: “Wales has proven itself during the coronavirus crisis by acting independently to protect our citizens from the dysfunctionality and ineptitude of the Westminster government.

“As we come out of this crisis, we cannot go back to the status quo. The status quo has failed Wales. Under-investment and unfair funding forms the crux of this unequal union of broken promises — delivered by the Tories at Westminster and defended by Labour through their support for the stagnant status-quo.

Welsh parliament to debate motion on independence for first time in its history

Support for break from UK has risen to record high as Cardiff took its own path on dealing with coronavirus

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Plumdaff]

Interestingly, support for independence among Labour voters now runs at about 40%, which sets the stage for a possible shift in Welsh Labour or more likely, I gradual loss of support to Plaid if they play this well.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

More Nationalists seeking advantage from the C-19 fall-out. Lovely job.

 

[editor]

More Nationalists seeking advantage from the C-19 fall-out. Lovely job.

Ridiculous statement.

It's precisely because of Johnson's calamitous, reckless and deadly mishandling of the coronavirus crisis in England - and the government's policy of putting business ahead of lives - that people in Wales are beginning to realise the potential benefits of being fully in charge of their own affairs in the future.

This crisis has highlighted the immense differences between England's priorities and way of doing things,and those of the rest of the UK, and that is what's driving increasing calls for independence, not some blind flag-flapping nationalism.

 

[nogojones]

Ridiculous statement.

It's precisely because of Johnson's calamitous, reckless and deadly mishandling of the coronavirus crisis in England - and the government's policy of putting business ahead of lives - that people in Wales are beginning to realise the potential benefits of being fully in charge of their own affairs in the future.

This crisis has highlighted the immense differences between England's priorities and way of doing things,and those of the rest of the UK, and that is what's driving increasing calls for independence, not some blind flag-flapping nationalism.

Though Mark Drayford and Vaughn Gething have handled it equally as shit and in some ways makes Borris and Handcock look enthusiastic and capable

 

[Plumdaff]

Though Mark Drayford and Vaughn Gething have handled it equally as shit and in some ways makes Borris and Handcock look enthusiastic and capable

I'd agree, however in most of the ways they were shit, especially at the start, they've followed Westminster too closely and the times when they've been successful it's precisely when they haven't repeated what's happened over the border (wearing facemasks in shops being the only current, bizarre exception). The stats bear it out, Wales has done better (for now). Nearly everyone I've spoken to has felt safer being here. Welsh Labour often being ineffectual, timid and illogically unionist isn't an argument against independence.

 

[nogojones]

I'd agree, however in most of the ways they were shit, especially at the start, they've followed Westminster too closely and the times when they've been successful it's precisely when they haven't repeated what's happened over the border (wearing facemasks in shops being the only current, bizarre exception). The stats bear it out, Wales has done better (for now). Nearly everyone I've spoken to has felt safer being here. Welsh Labour often being ineffectual, timid and illogically unionist isn't an argument against independence.

I'd support independence, but I'd also support throwing Drakeford and Gethin in Barry Docks

 

[Plumdaff]

I'd support independence, but I'd also support throwing Drakeford and Gethin in Barry Docks

I'd sign up for that

 

[ddraig]

More Nationalists seeking advantage from the C-19 fall-out. Lovely job.

Get a clue!
Welsh independence is internationalist and getting away from Westminster

 

[8ball]

Get a clue!
Welsh independence is internationalist and getting away from Westminster

So the next step would be escaping the Senedd?

 

[existentialist]

Ridiculous statement.

It's precisely because of Johnson's calamitous, reckless and deadly mishandling of the coronavirus crisis in England - and the government's policy of putting business ahead of lives - that people in Wales are beginning to realise the potential benefits of being fully in charge of their own affairs in the future.

This crisis has highlighted the immense differences between England's priorities and way of doing things,and those of the rest of the UK, and that is what's driving increasing calls for independence, not some blind flag-flapping nationalism.

I think that Johnson's very pointed snubbing of the Welsh (and Scottish) Governments probably has quite a bit to do with the increase in support.

 

[ddraig]

What's your issue with the Senedd?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd agree, however in most of the ways they were shit, especially at the start, they've followed Westminster too closely and the times when they've been successful it's precisely when they haven't repeated what's happened over the border (wearing facemasks in shops being the only current, bizarre exception). The stats bear it out, Wales has done better (for now). Nearly everyone I've spoken to has felt safer being here. Welsh Labour often being ineffectual, timid and illogically unionist isn't an argument against independence.

Better than where? Across the Severn Bridge is a big chunk of England that did a lot better than Wales.

 

[Plumdaff]

Better than where? Across the Severn Bridge is a big chunk of England that did a lot better than Wales.

Better than England.

You want to split hairs? Both countries have areas that have done better than others, however, overall as countries, it's resoundingly clear which country's response has been better for its people so far. If you want to judge England solely on local areas that have done well shall we judge Wales on Ceredigion, because nowhere in the UK has done better than that den of nats! The devolved nations have done better than England on this. I don't celebrate that, I have family near one of the worst affected areas. It has been a massive factor in a fair few people deciding Wales might well not be small, too poor, or too stupid to go it alone though.

 

[platinumsage]

To have dealt with COVID better on its own two feet Wales would have needed to borrow extensively as Westminster did, with a Bank of Wales and using either a new Welsh currency or the Euro after rejoining the EU.

I would support it if that’s what the Welsh people want, but good luck with that.

 

[Plumdaff]

Yes, because effective covid response has been entirely linked to wealth rather that politics and society which is why the UK and US have done so well compared to, say, Kerala or Vietnam.

An independent Wales would have to borrow, just as all nations do. It would borrow on the terms of a fairly standard size European economy. Wales has many problems with its economy very few of which have any solutions in Westminster. It would not be as rich as the UK. It would be as rich as many other European nations and would have the advantage of not being tied to a union which has kept it as a post-industrial low skill, low wage pool for over a century.

 

[ddraig]

Sad but not surprising from labour and other mainstream politicians

Plaid independence referendum call rejected by Senedd members

Plaid Cymru wanted ministers to seek the right for the Welsh Parliament to legislate for the poll.

www.bbc.co.uk

Plaid Cymru's motion was rejected by 43 Senedd members, with nine in favour of it and one abstention.

 

[ddraig]

 

[8ball]

What's your issue with the Senedd?

They are (another) bunch of useless cunts, but I was just wondering where the internationalism thing was going, really.

 

[editor]

Sad but not surprising from labour and other mainstream politicians

Plaid independence referendum call rejected by Senedd members

Plaid Cymru wanted ministers to seek the right for the Welsh Parliament to legislate for the poll.

www.bbc.co.uk

Plaid Cymru's motion was rejected by 43 Senedd members, with nine in favour of it and one abstention.

It's got a long way to go.

Plaid Cymu's Rhun ap Iorwerth said Wales could have dealt better with Covid-19 if it was self-governing.

But Tory Darren Millar said independence would "make us less resilient to global events".

Labour minister Jane Hutt said Wales was "best served by a strong devolution settlement within a strong UK".

Constitutionally, an independence referendum would require the agreement of the UK government, as was the case with the one in Scotland in 2014.

Opening the debate, Mr ap Iorwerth, Senedd member for Ynys Mon, said that if Wales had the "kinds of tools that independent countries have the ability to devise" it could have handled the pandemic better.

Independent small nations such as Norway, the Czech Republic, Croatia, Serbia and Lithuania "have death rates a tenth of Wales", he said.

"We are not asking the Senedd to support independence today, but asking the Senedd to support the principle that the people of Wales should decide," he said.

 

[ddraig]

They are (another) bunch of useless cunts, but I was just wondering where the internationalism thing was going, really.

As useless or more useless and in what way?

 

[8ball]

As useless or more useless and in what way?

I've had to recalibrate a lot of measures of uselessness recently, so am unsure of exact quantities, but is the gist that you want everything to be mismanaged by local useless cunts?