Independence for Wales?
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Comparing an area of 3 million with an area of 50 + million isn't comparing like with like either. Whatever the content of Wales's nationhood, I would say that it doesn't contain a distinct political tradition from England (or Scotland necessarily) - particularly when it comes to the Labour movement.
souljacker
innit
Not entirely serious though but I thought that would be obvious.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
it's not obvious no, tiresome yes
Plumdaff
joy in people
Eventually, I think yes. My understanding is that current polling is about 17% pro independence here, so clearly a long way to go. What's more likely in the short term in demand for changes to the Barnett formula and greater devolution. In the longer term, especially if there's a successful independent Scotland, I can only see support growing.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Funnily enough I'm just about to finish re-reading this for the first time in years.
8ball
Merr xmas...
Dunno how much panic we'd have had for the last couple of weeks over Scotland if it hadn't been for the oil...
Gavin Bl
terrible awful baaad
Though I would be a 'No', a 'Yes' vote in Scotland could put Wales in a potentially difficult situation within what would remain of the union - population of the UK's celtic fringe halves overnight, and Wales and NI (whose protestants would presumably have their own crisis to deal with) squeezed in with the much much larger England with over 90% of the population and resources.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Us? You're a fucking cockney.
Gavin Bl
terrible awful baaad
maybe, maybe - but I sense a hardening of attitudes in England towards this (and indeed in Wales to the prospect of Scotland leaving)
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Back Welsh independence if you like.
But don't do it on the back of some bullshit notion based on a semi-mytholigised account of one warlord's military victory over another warlord hundreds of years ago.
And please don't do it on the back of an ahistorical account of the Welsh Labour movement that ignores the British element of it, the English (and Scottish - Keir Hardie) influence on Welsh labour and the Welsh influence on English labour.
Please don't highlight the Welsh language while ignoring the English mass immigration of the 19th century and its influence on culture, the number of Welsh people whose descendants are English economic migrants.
Welsh culture draws from many sources. Welsh history has many strands. Welsh nationalism tends to be very choosy as to which strands it chooses to pay attention to. That is not intellectually honest.
But don't do it on the back of some bullshit notion based on a semi-mytholigised account of one warlord's military victory over another warlord hundreds of years ago.
And please don't do it on the back of an ahistorical account of the Welsh Labour movement that ignores the British element of it, the English (and Scottish - Keir Hardie) influence on Welsh labour and the Welsh influence on English labour.
Please don't highlight the Welsh language while ignoring the English mass immigration of the 19th century and its influence on culture, the number of Welsh people whose descendants are English economic migrants.
Welsh culture draws from many sources. Welsh history has many strands. Welsh nationalism tends to be very choosy as to which strands it chooses to pay attention to. That is not intellectually honest.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
True enough. Those are not the noises coming from the Plaid mps quoted in the OP, though.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
please can you stop this
Plaid are inclusive and socialist
you'll of course disagree but i think you are making this thread very negative already
what is wrong with independence? you'll still be able to get on the same train and visit from London won't you
Wales will be denied use of the Severn Tunnel and the Forest of Dean shall become a DMZ
Plumdaff
joy in people
Firstly, there's clearly two strands to Plaid - the traditional, Welsh speaking heartlands Plaid, and the more Leanne Wood style left wing politics Plaid. I'd say your depiction of Plaid as simply the former is a bit dated. There's a dynamic there and a balance to be struck between celebrating some of the distinct elements of Welsh national identity without allowing that to be exclusive or stuck in the past - a great example of modern Welsh national identity is that my partner was taught Welsh by a Somali-Welsh bloke from Grangetown who does the announcements at Cardiff City.
Any remotely successful independence movement would need to be about more than a few MPs, and much more than a political party. I'd vote Yes in Scotland and when I lived there I never once voted SNP, nor would I now. Part of the success of the Yes campaign in Scotland is that it is seen as far more than a vehicle for the SNP, albeit that that party plays a part in it.
nogojones
spelling is overrated
I'm English, but lived in Wales a good 25 years. I'm unlikely to ever vote for Plaid but I'd vote for independence. Its clearly a separate country with most folks here sharing some sort of cultural identity as Welsh rather than British.
That it would improve our lives in any clear way is questionable, but fuck the union
That it would improve our lives in any clear way is questionable, but fuck the union
editor
hiraethified
It's sadly a common (non) argument to put down the Welsh.
It's viable, but we'd be worst off financially if we left the Union.
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
Again I don't understand why people think that. You'd not have to pay for the tumor of London. You would have a rough couple of years, may lose your free prescription sop, but I really don't understand why a independent Wales wouldn't be viable.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Culturally, I think South Wales has more in common with Southwest England than it has with North Wales.
But cultural identities are not static - perhaps it's changing.
Again, it would be viable; but we would in all likelihood be a poorer country than we are now. We're a small economy GDP is lower than the rest of the UK and most of Western Europe and sadly we don't have the strengths of the Scottish economy and aren't a net contributor to the UK as the Scots are.
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
I've heard a awful lot of Bullshit from the No campaign in Scotland.
Ireland declared independence without the kind of natural resources Scotland has at it's disposal.
To be honest and a bit weird, I wouldn't have been bothered by Ireland being ruled by Westminister for the last 70 years. They frankly wouldn't have been the Catholic Church dominated cronyist wankers that have dominated Irish politics since we left the union. We'd have the NHS, and the English wouldn't have done much worse than our own lot.
And N_igma CR and LiamO pile in, in 10, 9, 8.....
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