Independence for Wales?

[editor]

Culturally, I think South Wales has more in common with Southwest England than it has with North Wales.

But cultural identities are not static - perhaps it's changing.

There's far more 'Welshness' apparent in Cardiff than there was, say, 15 years ago.

Wales has never been so alive and strong culturally.

 

[Belushi]

There's far more 'Welshness' apparent in Cardiff than there was, say, 15 years ago.

Wales has never been so alive and strong culturally.

Certainly true in the Valleys as well, much more than when I was a kid.

 

[editor]

Again, it would be viable; but we would in all likelihood be a poorer country than we are now. We're a small economy GDP is lower than the rest of the UK and most of Western Europe and sadly we don't have the strengths of the Scottish economy and aren't a net contributor to the UK as the Scots are.

Hmmm

Myth #1: Wales is too small to survive as an independent nation
Myth Busted: Wales, a country of 3 million people, is not too small to survive as an independent country. It is a fact that there are over 100 other independent countries in the world that are smaller than Wales. In fact, of the top 10 wealthiest countries in terms of GDP per capita, 9 have a population of less than 5 million, and 7 of those have a smaller population than Wales.

Of the countries of the European Union, some of the most prosperous are small countries:

EU Member State - GDP per head (in PP) - Population
Luxembourg - 58,900 - 0.5m
Netherlands - 29,5001 - 6.3m
Austria - 28,900 - 8.3m
Denmark - 28,600 - 5.4m
Belgium -27,700 - 10.5m 1
Key Facts and Figures about Europe and the European Union (Office for Official Publications of the European Union)
Economic prosperity is no longer secured through being a large country or empire nor by using military force to gain access to markets.

There is no longer a link between the size of a country and its economic success.

http://www.welshindependence.net/p/busting-myths.html

 

[8den]

Again, it would be viable; but we would in all likelihood be a poorer country than we are now. We're a small economy GDP is lower than the rest of the UK and most of Western Europe and sadly we don't have the strengths of the Scottish economy and aren't a net contributor to the UK as the Scots are.

Again I don't see it. Your GDP is lower because the UK is London skewed. There's all sorts of creative accounting and promotion of Welsh industries you could do. Look at the Whole double Irish corporate tax shenanigans we get away with.

(Go for it, just don't muscle in on our tax dodges)

 

[8ball]

Wales has never been so alive and strong culturally.

I thought there had been a reduction in Welsh speakers over the last few years (obviously that's only one facet of cultural vibrancy but seems worth observing).

 

[Belushi]

I don't think you're quote really addresses comparative Welsh economic weakness (which is to do with deindustrialisation than size Ed).

 

[editor]

I thought there had been a reduction in Welsh speakers over the last few years (obviously that's only one facet of cultural vibrancy but seems worth observing).

I meant in terms of Welsh identity being expressed through art and culture.

When I was growing up, there was almost an embarrassment about being Welsh.

 

[Belushi]

Again I don't see it. Your GDP is lower because the UK is London skewed. There's all sorts of creative accounting and promotion of Welsh industries you could do. Look at the Whole double Irish corporate tax shenanigans we get away with.

(Go for it, just don't muscle in on our tax dodges)

Historically that is true but there's no getting away from the fact that in many ways were still a rust belt economy. Now it may well be true that could be better addressed in the long term as an independent state, but that's a different argument.

 

[ddraig]

I thought there had been a reduction in Welsh speakers over the last few years (obviously that's only one facet of cultural vibrancy but seems worth observing).

anything to back this up please?

 

[8den]

I thought there had been a reduction in Welsh speakers over the last few years (obviously that's only one facet of cultural vibrancy but seems worth observing).

Again I don't see the relevance of the number of speakers of a language to the vibrance of it's culture.

Gaeilge is taught appallingly in Irish schools. It's a oral language without a written literary tradition. And yet I had to study Greek and Latin to be taught about our finest epic "The Tain"

Despite the fact that language is mandatory for most Irish kids in your leaving cert, the level of basic skill in the language in the general public is shocking. In fact I was recently told by a barrister that if you are caught bang to rights, bloody fingerprints on the knife guilty of a crime, ask to tried in Irish. Everyone from the prosecution to the judge to the Garda are all supposed to be fluent in the language. But in practical terms aren't. The possibilities of a mistrial are massive.

 

[editor]

I don't think you're quote really addresses comparative Welsh economic weakness (which is to do with deindustrialisation than size Ed).

De-industrialisation is way behind us.

But the Rhondda has coped with dramatic social change far better than many other communities. Less than a century ago there were more than 100,000 miners working in the Rhondda alone. Now there are none. Work was manual, male and local. Now, work will just as probably be done by a woman, it will almost certainly require travel and very few people will be in unskilled manual jobs. In just three generations the whole world of work has changed in the valleys – and a whole community has had to adapt with it. That is quite an achievement...

So this is a gentle plea to journalists – tell the whole valleys story. In the last decade the Rhondda alone has had a new hospital, three new health centres, four new primary schools, a much improved railway service and a new bypass road. We have tough challenges, especially with tight local spending determined by Westminster, but there is very little appetite for Welsh independence here, for the simple reason that it wouldn’t end the bedroom tax, it wouldn’t pay anyone’s mortgage, it wouldn’t build a new factory, it wouldn’t put wages back ahead of inflation.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...valleys-not-independence-scotland-nationalism

 

[Belushi]

I meant in terms of Welsh identity being expressed through art and culture.

When I was growing up, there was almost an embarrassment about being Welsh.

This, the Welsh language is only one aspect of welsh identity.

 

[Belushi]

De-industrialisation is way behind us.

Oh come on I'm from the Valleys there are still massive problems caused by deindustrialisation. We're still one of the very poorest regions in the EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-15295224

 

[8ball]

I meant in terms of Welsh identity being expressed through art and culture.

When I was growing up, there was almost an embarrassment about being Welsh.

Agree there - definite increase in confidence compared to a few decades back.

 

[editor]

This, the Welsh language is only one aspect of welsh identity.

I've booked three Welsh speaking bands in my Brixton club. That would have been just about unthinkable/impossible 20 years ago.

 

[editor]

Of come on I'm from the Valleys there are still massive problems caused by deindustrialisation. We're still one of the very poorest regions in the EU.

More reason to look forward and take control over our own destiny, given the paucity of support from Westminster.

 

[8ball]

anything to back this up please?

Fuck's sake - we only discussing it on here a few months back.

 

[ddraig]

I've booked three Welsh speaking bands in my Brixton club. That would have been just about unthinkable/impossible 20 years ago.

who were they?

the Earth are playing London soon btw
E2a With support from Baby Queens

 

[ddraig]

Fuck's sake - we only discussing it on here a few months back.

oh sorry! it'll be easier for you to evidence then surely

 

[8ball]

oh sorry! it'll be easier for you to evidence then surely

Yes, very easy, though you'd forget in 20 seconds you goldfish fuckwit.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

De-industrialisation is way behind us.

Hmmm. When did Llanwern close? 10 years ago? The kinds of thing I see Newport trying to do to replace the jobs lost by the closing of Llanwern and other heavy industry like the aluminium mill in Rogerstone my dad worked at don't inspire me with massive confidence. These were well-paid skilled jobs.

 

[ddraig]

Yes, very easy, though you'd forget in 20 seconds you goldfish fuckwit.

Why the abuse?

 

[editor]

Hmmm. When did Llanwern close? 10 years ago? The kinds of thing I see Newport trying to do to replace the jobs lost by the closing of Llanwern and other heavy industry like the aluminium mill in Rogerstone my dad worked at don't inspire me with massive confidence. These were well-paid skilled jobs.

Not sure what this has to do with the issue. Who do you think is to blame for the mill closing?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not sure what this has to do with the issue. Who do you think is to blame for the mill closing?

I'm suggesting that deindustrialisation isn't so far behind us. It's on-going.

 

[8ball]

Why the abuse?

Exasperation (maybe over-spilling a bit from other matters in which case sorry).

Remember the thread on the Welsh language protest recently? The best figures in recent times were the 2011 Census - nothing since shows a turnaround, though the Welsh Assembly has been prodded into taking some action (which obviously takes time).

http://cymdeithas.org/census

edit: Should add to that that there was a decent number of school-age children among the Welsh-speaking kids when they analysed the data (higher than among pensioners or working age adults), though concerns over whether they would continue with it when out of school - I can supply links but just Googling 'number Welsh speakers' made it pop right up when I did it.

 

[ddraig]

diolch

 

[editor]

I'm suggesting that deindustrialisation isn't so far behind us. It's on-going.

And you think the Westminster government have been the people who have always had our best interests at heart here?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And you think the Westminster government have been the people who have always had our best interests at heart here?

No, I don't. I was responding to your comment that 'de-industrialisation is way behind us'. It isn't.

 

[8den]

Culturally, I think South Wales has more in common with Southwest England than it has with North Wales.

If you search this forum using my username and the term "West Brit" you'll find loads of Irish republicans flinging that term at me. Because I think the "struggle" was a pointless waste of life carried out by thugs. I'd argue that Ireland hasn't been demonstrably improved by independence and in many ways would have benefited by staying in the Union. The Catholic church's staggering power and it's abuse of said power might not have happened for example. By arguing this position they accuse me of not being Irish but "West British".

In short just because you identify with your neighbour doesn't mean you need to share government.

 

[8den]

And you think the Westminster government have been the people who have always had our best interests at heart here?

Aren't you in Brixton?