Independence for Wales?

[ddraig]

I don't think Wales is capable of going it alone we can't balance the books.
Now we have left the EU this will become more evident as we recieve about £245 million PA more than we pay in, not a massive amount these days, but most of that money goes to less prosperous areas under the EU Regional Policy which seeks to balance prosperity in EU Countries, we are talking the Valleys here and these areas will suffer unless supported and unfortunately England is the only place we can go looking for hand outs post-brexit

Welsh independence makes little sense unless you are driven purely by patriotism

The maths have been done

Strange someone with a Sabcat/IWW avatar would be against independence
Also Welsh Independence is not driven purely by patriotism, it's mostly driven by the need to get away from Westminster

 

[butchersapron]

The maths have been done

Strange someone with a Sabcat/IWW avatar would be against independence
Also Welsh Independence is not driven purely by patriotism, it's mostly driven by the need to get away from Westminster

Hang on, he's not showing enough patriotism for the IWW?

 

[ddraig]

Hang on, he's not showing enough patriotism for the IWW?

I mean (I think!) the deferring to a "higher power", and negativity about more local organising (of sorts)
A stretch I'll agree
e2a - it might be nothing at all to do with the IWW anyway, so I'm probably wrong one way or another

 

[butchersapron]

I mean (I think!) the deferring to a "higher power", and negativity about more local organising (of sorts)

I was referring to your line:

Strange someone with a Sabcat/IWW avatar would be against independence

though. That's not good stuff.

 

[ddraig]

I was referring to your line:

Strange someone with a Sabcat/IWW avatar would be against independence

though. That's not good stuff.

Apologies then
Please educate me why not and i'll attempt to correct other wobblies I know who are for independence

 

[butchersapron]

Jesus.

 

[Hyperdark]

Self determination is not served by governments, little difference between a government that contains 60 million or 3 million I am no fan of either, but if starting on the premise of choosing one or the other then from an economic standpoint the case of independance for Wales is clear that it would have negative outcomes

As for the political aspect more Local = good in my view, it is after all a step towards self determination, but as far as our current lot and the whole system in Wales is concerned they are simply a second rate version of England's Bunch.
Wales has for hundreds of years been a awash with local council corruption and cronyism aided by an equally corrupt police force this continues today

 

[ddraig]

Self determination is not served by governments, little difference between a government that contains 60 million or 3 million I am no fan of either, but if starting on the premise of choosing one or the other then from an economic standpoint the case of independance for Wales is clear that it would have negative outcomes

As for the political aspect more Local = good in my view, it is after all a step towards self determination, but as far as our current lot and the whole system in Wales is concerned they are simply a second rate version of England's Bunch.
Wales has for hundreds of years been a awash with local council corruption and cronyism aided by an equally corrupt police force this continues today

What "negative outcomes"?

 

[DexterTCN]

Self determination is not served by governments, little difference between a government that contains 60 million or 3 million I am no fan of either, but if starting on the premise of choosing one or the other then from an economic standpoint the case of independance for Wales is clear that it would have negative outcomes...

This is not correct, firstly you are ignoring what Scotland has done...do you want me to list the differences between rUK and Scotland? This has been done with devolved powers, not full fiscal control.

Secondly...it's not a difference between one govt and another...it's the difference between being in control of your own country and not having tories lord it over you. Tories are not just another government.

Thirdly...too wee and too poor, eh?

 

[Hyperdark]

Sorry Dexter I'm not sure I need to recognise what Scotland has done, but tell me anyway what has Scotland done? and how can Wales do the same?
Bearing in mind that economicaly Scotland is still not independent and it is the negative economic side of things I referred to in my post

 

[ddraig]

Sorry Dexter I'm not sure I need to recognise what Scotland has done, but tell me anyway what has Scotland done? and how can Wales do the same?
Bearing in mind that economicaly Scotland is still not independent and it is the negative economic side of things I referred to in my post

Again, what "negative outcomes"? thanks

 

[DexterTCN]

Sorry Dexter I'm not sure I need to recognise what Scotland has done, but tell me anyway what has Scotland done? and how can Wales do the same?
Bearing in mind that economicaly Scotland is still not independent and it is the negative economic side of things I referred to in my post

Ok I'll answer... but you talk about negative outcomes as if Wales isn't capable of surviving as a nation. People in Wales are just as capable as anyone else of looking after their own shit...to suggest otherwise is racist, so don't do that unless you have very convincing data on Wales operating independently economically with all controls of fiscal levers, immigration etc. (which you don't).

Quick question...imagine Wales doesn't have to pay its share of HS2 or Trident...is Wales capable of spending that money better in relation to the people living in Wales?

Anyway...financial differences in Scotland, off the top of my head...

no bedroom tax
free prescriptions
free education
free travel for the old
free childcare for the young
a fairer income tax (only some taxes are devolved, and in a limited way)
more investment in social housing
additional payments of Carer's Allowance twice a year

What does this cost? An increase in racism, basically. It's quite obvious to the majority of Scots that we don't need anyone else holding our purse-strings or claiming to dole out charity, and that's only with devolved powers.

Why isn't Wales like that? Because Wales has only ever had a unionist party in power.

 

[editor]

Ok I'll answer... but you talk about negative outcomes as if Wales isn't capable of surviving as a nation. People in Wales are just as capable as anyone else of looking after their own shit...to suggest otherwise is racist, so don't do that unless you have very convincing data on Wales operating independently economically with all controls of fiscal levers, immigration etc. (which you don't).

Quick question...imagine Wales doesn't have to pay its share of HS2 or Trident...is Wales capable of spending that money better in relation to the people living in Wales?

Anyway...financial differences in Scotland, off the top of my head...

no bedroom tax
free prescriptions
free education
free travel for the old
free childcare for the young
a fairer income tax (only some taxes are devolved, and in a limited way)
more investment in social housing
additional payments of Carer's Allowance twice a year

What does this cost? An increase in racism, basically. It's quite obvious to the majority of Scots that we don't need anyone else holding our purse-strings or claiming to dole out charity, and that's only with devolved powers.

Why isn't Wales like that? Because Wales has only ever had a unionist party in power.

Wales has free prescriptions.

If you are registered with a GP in Wales you are entitled to free prescriptions from a pharmacist in Wales.

Old people travel for free

If you live in Wales, over 60s and disabled people can travel free on local buses in Wales with a Concessionary Bus Pass at any time - there are no time restrictions

Can't be arsed to go through the rest

 

[editor]

Interesting piece here

Arguments against Welsh independence are like those in an ‘abusive relationship’ says Michael Sheen

The arguments against Welsh independence show that Wales is in an “abusive relationship” according to Michael Sheen. The Welsh Hollywood actor made the comments in an interview on Guardian columnist Owen Jones’ Youtube channel after he was asked what he thought was driving the rise huge in...

nation.cymru

 

[editor]

Charlotte's making her case:

Charlotte Church has sung that “independence is normal” in a YesCymru tune to celebrate the New Year.

The Welsh singer-songwriter, who has sold over 10 million records worldwide, teamed up with the grassroots pro-independence group to bring a musical twist to the start of 2021.

She said that her support for independence wasn’t about “nationalism, but instead was about “democracy”, and added that the country had the opportunity to become a “shining beacon of environmentalism and wellbeing.”

YesCymru shared a video on social media which featured a cartoon of her belting out the song on stage whilst wearing a long Welsh flag dress. It also included a suggestion that supporters back entering the Eurovision Song Contest with the song and representing Wales.

‘Independence is normal' says Charlotte Church in YesCymru's New Year tune

Charlotte Church has sung that “independence is normal” in a YesCymru tune to celebrate the New Year. The Welsh singer-songwriter, who has sold over 10 million records worldwide, teamed up with the grassroots pro-independence group to bring a musical twist to the start of 2021. She said that her...

nation.cymru

 

[Aladdin]

If I had a vote it would be yes.
Just as I'd vote for Scottish independence and for a fully united Ireland.

 

[Pickman's model]

If I had a vote it would be yes.
Just as I'd vote for Scottish independence and for a fully united Ireland.

Ah but an Ireland governed by Fianna Fail or Fine Gael, or one governed in the interests of the people in line with the 1867 proclamation, the 1916 proclamation and the 1921 democratic programme?

 

[Aladdin]

Ah but an Ireland governed by Fianna Fail or Fine Gael, or one governed in the interests of the people in line with the 1867 proclamation, the 1916 proclamation and the 1921 democratic programme?

I think a btand new party is needed. FF are useless. FG not much better. Labour is dead sadly. SF are shite.

So long as the fuckers listen to NPHET and the people and dont listen to the likes of Micheal Mc Dowell and his cronies.

 

[MathFabMathonwy]

A bonfire of the local authorities in Cymru would be a great place to start making some cost saving changes. As would reigning in the idiocy of the Senedd in demanding MOAR and MOAR members.

 

[MathFabMathonwy]

So no breakthrough for Plaid in the elections on the back of all the noise about Yes Cymru... I despair.

 

[_Russ_]

Wales has free prescriptions.

Old people travel for free


Can't be arsed to go through the rest

Sorry for the thread resurrection, I don't usually wander in this section, but we can only afford these things because of external funding. Independence would kill all that in an instant.
To illustrate our financial dependence on Whitehall you only have to look at how Drakeford is not locking down now as he did last time, its nothing to do with being in a better position than last winter and he really would do it again but there isnt whitehall funding for a furlough scheme this time around so he is fucked

Don't read this a Pro-Whitehall rant, Im just a realist

 

[ddraig]

Sorry for the thread resurrection, I don't usually wander in this section, but we can only afford these things because of external funding. Independence would kill all that in an instant.
To illustrate our financial dependence on Whitehall you only have to look at how Drakeford is not locking down now as he did last time, its nothing to do with being in a better position than last winter and he really would do it again but there isnt whitehall funding for a furlough scheme this time around so he is fucked

Don't read this a Pro-Whitehall rant, Im just a realist

Any actual evidence to back up your defeatist view?

 

[nogojones]

Sorry for the thread resurrection, I don't usually wander in this section, but we can only afford these things because of external funding. Independence would kill all that in an instant.
To illustrate our financial dependence on Whitehall you only have to look at how Drakeford is not locking down now as he did last time, its nothing to do with being in a better position than last winter and he really would do it again but there isnt whitehall funding for a furlough scheme this time around so he is fucked

Don't read this a Pro-Whitehall rant, Im just a realist

He's not doing it because he's scared of loosing funding from Whitehall. He's doing it because he cares more about Weatherspoons profits than he does peoples lives. His response all through this pandemic has been one of the worst in Europe with infection and death figures to match and was only marginally better than Johnson's, which is a fucking low bar.

He, like most of Welsh Labour are a fucking blight.

 

[ddraig]

Any actual evidence to back up your defeatist view?

_Russ_ ?
Not anther dump and run comment with no substance surely?

 

[8ball]

_Russ_ ?
Not anther dump and run comment with no substance surely?

He's possibly thinking of Wales' fiscal deficit.
To be fair, it's a little smaller than that of Northern Ireland.

 

[ska invita]

Found this interesting - not just about welsh independence, but basically is

talk based on this book

 

[Sasaferrato]

Sorry for the thread resurrection, I don't usually wander in this section, but we can only afford these things because of external funding. Independence would kill all that in an instant.
To illustrate our financial dependence on Whitehall you only have to look at how Drakeford is not locking down now as he did last time, its nothing to do with being in a better position than last winter and he really would do it again but there isnt whitehall funding for a furlough scheme this time around so he is fucked

Don't read this a Pro-Whitehall rant, Im just a realist

The same applies in Scotland.

 

[_Russ_]

Any actual evidence to back up your defeatist view?

Read the post, it gave an example of Drakeford becoming a realist as soon as Lockdown support funding was withdrawn therss a lot more facts out there..btw got any actual evidence of how Wales can survive without outside finance?..no of course you havnt because the facts..y'know the financial records....the books show it cant, just another fantasist pissing into the wind

 

[existentialist]

Read the post, it gave an example of Drakeford becoming a realist as soon as Lockdown support funding was withdrawn therss a lot more facts out there..btw got any actual evidence of how Wales can survive without outside finance?..no of course you havnt because the facts..y'know the financial records....the books show it cant, just another fantasist pissing into the wind

Classy.

 

[ddraig]

Read the post, it gave an example of Drakeford becoming a realist as soon as Lockdown support funding was withdrawn therss a lot more facts out there..btw got any actual evidence of how Wales can survive without outside finance?..no of course you havnt because the facts..y'know the financial records....the books show it cant, just another fantasist pissing into the wind

Fill your boots

Independence in your Pocket

The 'Independence in your Pocket' booklet offers an important, positive starting point for future discussion about Welsh Independence.

www.yes.cymru