Implications for the rest of us if Scotland votes yes

[ViolentPanda]

You can have it both ways. It's possible to be a part of several layers of state, with as many powers as possible devolved as far down the ladder as possible.

That's not a defence of the EU as currently constituted - but the principle can stand.

I would think that any irony here is that Scotland already has more layers than the rest of the UK, with more powers devolved downwards.

The problem doesn't IMO reside in the number of "layers", as some are implying. For me, the main problem resides elsewhere - in the fact that those layers are all subordinate to the interests of the ruling class, and that whatever benefits (if any) arise from independence will mostly accrue to that ruling class, however deep participation is in the multi-layered democratic institutions the people are allowed.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

I'm not "sulking", I'm just still amazed that anyone who professes to have an ounce of political sense in their head could possibly compare something so un-kristallnachtlike with kristallnacht. Stupidity on the scale of yours sticks in the mind long after it's been perpetrated.



"Son"?
One thing my dad doesn't do is compare a handful of broken windows with the 7,000-plus businesses that were destroyed, or the 1,100-plus synagogues that were devestated on kristallnacht. He's got this thing (even though he's a Norwich City supporter, and the two don't at first seem compatible) called "a sense of perspective".

You're an idiot, a patronising idiot who didn't have the balls to own up to making a fatuous comparison. Being reminded of that fatuous comparison seems the right "punishment" for someone so bollockless.

Ooh... I'm to be punished for comparing Panda's mates to nazis about three years ago! What are you going to do? Wear a mask and come round and smash all my windows?

This is referendum day in Scotland sunshine, stop shitting all over it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ooh... I'm to be punished for comparing Panda's mates to nazis about three years ago! What are you going to do? Wear a mask and come round and smash all my windows?

1) Not "my mates".
2) You're not worth the effort of pissing on, let alone smashing your windows.
3) I put "punishment" in speechmarks for a reason. Good of you to show what a plum you are by taking the word literally.

This is referendum day in Scotland sunshine, stop shitting all over it.

Physician, heal thyself.

 

[Theisticle]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck Off.

 

[frogwoman]

I am really not a great fan of inappropriate and inaccurate Nazi comparisons ffs. It trivializes the real Nazis.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The problem doesn't IMO reside in the number of "layers", as some are implying. For me, the main problem resides elsewhere - in the fact that those layers are all subordinate to the interests of the ruling class, and that whatever benefits (if any) arise from independence will mostly accrue to that ruling class, however deep participation is in the multi-layered democratic institutions the people are allowed.

I agree entirely. Hence we are not governed in a way most of us would want. However, the evidence I see from devolved parliaments within larger countries - not just the UK, but Germany, Spain and elsewhere - is that those devolved parliaments are made to give more concessions in the fields they are accountable for. This is what legitimises their existence. There are points of comparison with other such bodies - and there is a 'why can't we have that too' effect. This effect precipitated the end of tuition fees in Germany.

Of course, local government has been under attack in the UK for more than 30 years now. That has added hugely to the democratic deficit.

 

[leanderman]

This is interesting, economic reality versus nationalist sentiment

http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...on-can-tell-us-about-the-scottish-referendum/

To Yes voters who say they would rather live in a ditch than under the Tories, economic arguments are of little interest

 

[Nylock]

 

[1%er]

I have no idea what the implications would be, but looking at the press in South America, they recon:

David Cameron would be kicked out as leader of the Conservative Party and thus no longer prime minister, as he would be responsible for allowing the break-up.

The British pound would start to fall against other currencies because the markets hate uncertainly.

Scotland would continue to use the British pound in the same way Panama and Liberia use the US dollar, but have no control over interest rates or anything else.

Spain would block automatic membership of the European Union for an independent Scotland, it would have to join the end of the queue for membership and go through years of convoluted negotiations. It would have to accept the euro as its currency. (Spain would block it because the Spanish province of Catalonia is holding its own (unauthorized) referendum on independence in November).

Some businesses, particularly banks, would move their head offices from Scotland to England.

 

[Frances Lengel]

the shetlands don't allow donkeys?

i imagined myself running a donkey sanctuary in the shetlands. this changes everything.

No such place - It's either Shetland or The Shetland Islands. I'm not even saying that to be a prick for the sake of it, Shetlanders really do get quite aereated if you refer to "the Sheltands".

 

[Frances Lengel]

You're prejudiced against the Shetlands because they don't allow donkeys, aren't you?

Same goes for you VP, honestly I'm not trying to be a prick - When I am, I'm fairly unequivocal about it so I hope you'll believe me when I say I'm not, but Shetlanders hate it if you refer to "the Shetlands". Apart from that, as you were, not arsed about any of it, me. Shetland's a lovely place though, I've been once Didn't need a passport either

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Might as well lock this thread I suppose?

 

[Idaho]

The implications of the no is probably as great as a yes.

 

[danny la rouge]

The implications of the no is probably as great as a yes.

Greater.

 

[Dandred]

I thought the Yes vote would have won, are we (urban) really so out of touch with the people?

 

[butchersapron]

I thought the Yes vote would have won, are we (urban) really so out of touch with the people?

An i and a we and a people.

 

[Dandred]

An i and a we and a people.

So, a yes then.

 

[leanderman]

So, a yes then.

The minority is always right

 

[Dandred]

In this vote, the majority is to the right.

 

[8ball]

In this vote, the majority is to the right.

I think the idea that this was a simple left vs. right thing is as spurious as it was in the AV referendum.

 

[butchersapron]

I think the idea that this was a simple left vs. right thing is as spurious as it was in the AV referendum.

Indeed - and any post result analysis that starts from that position is doomed to be propagandistic. The little info we have doesn't even support this,

 

[DotCommunist]

I thought the Yes vote would have won, are we (urban) really so out of touch with the people?

most people were predicting a narrow no all along?

 

[Dandred]

I think the idea that this was a simple left vs. right thing is as spurious as it was in the AV referendum.

Do you agree with leanderman's post that "The minority is always right." ?

 

[Dandred]

most people were predicting a narrow no all along?

Not here, see the Alba forum.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/will-you-vote-for-independence.287096/

 

[butchersapron]

Not here, see the Alba forum.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/will-you-vote-for-independence.287096/

Not a prediction. The question is a clue.

 

[8ball]

Do you agree with leanderman's post that "The minority is always right." ?

I'm not too sure what it was meant to mean.

 

[8ball]

most people were predicting a narrow no all along?

Even most of those who really wanted a Yes.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not too sure what it was meant to mean.

It was meant to mean - from a gentrifying yuppie supporter - that people who lose votes and dare to stand by their principles are trying to instill a dictatorship. Rather than the democratic acceptance of the vote that actually happened. It's the sort of shrill unsupported assertion that thrives in corners that the sort of participation that YES helped birth can shine some light on.

 

[8ball]

It was meant to mean - from a gentrifying yuppie supporter - that people who lose votes and dare to stand by their principles are trying to instill a dictatorship. Rather than the democratic acceptance of the vote that actually happened. It's the sort of shrill unsupported assertion that thrives in corners that the sort of participation that YES helped birth can shine some light on.

No, you're going to have to go even simpler - I've been doing complicated code stuff all day and would have trouble following the plot of the A-Team at the moment.

Or I'll just read it again when I've had some sleep...

 

[butchersapron]

No, you're going to have to go even simpler - I've been doing complicated code stuff all day and would have trouble following the plot of the A-Team at the moment.

Or I'll just read it again when I've had some sleep...

YES voters are undemocrats who think they won.