Implications for the rest of us if Scotland votes yes

[ViolentPanda]

It could happen, anything can happen. But one of the reasons people hire expert opinions is to quantify the likelihood of something happening or, in other words, the risk profile.

However, establishing an expert opinion on something for which there is no precedent will invariably depend, however much it's dressed up in jargon, as much on the personal values that the "expert" brings to the question, as on the expert's knowledge.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You seem to find subtlety/nuance rather difficult to grasp - word of advice, don't try your hand at law.

More than a word of advice.
If you practice law, then you're well aware of the role ambiguity can play in interpretation, so why are you seesawing, and making your statements so (relatively) ambiguous? First you're here, then you're there, then you're thither, then you're yon.
Seriously, hire a discourse analyst, then ask them what you're doing wrong. When they've stopped laughing, they'll tell you.

 

[Diamond]

However, establishing an expert opinion on something for which there is no precedent will invariably depend, however much it's dressed up in jargon, as much on the personal values that the "expert" brings to the question, as on the expert's knowledge.

And their research skills, ability to intuit from similar situations, connections, general "feel" for the matter, etc..., etc...

But yes, we would be entering deep blue water here.

 

[ViolentPanda]

(Can't believe that this whole EU membership argument has been reduced to the employment of a qualifying adverb... talk about limited perspectives...)

Again, if you're in the legal trade, you should be well aware of how important correct phraseology is.

 

[Diamond]

More than a word of advice.
If you practice law, then you're well aware of the role ambiguity can play in interpretation, so why are you seesawing, and making your statements so (relatively) ambiguous? First you're here, then you're there, then you're thither, then you're yon.
Seriously, hire a discourse analyst, then ask them what you're doing wrong. When they've stopped laughing, they'll tell you.

I am stating precisely my interpretation.

If it is not as nailed to the wall as you would like it, then tough. I'm calling it how I see it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And their research skills, ability to intuit from similar situations, connections, general "feel" for the matter, etc..., etc...

But yes, we would be entering deep blue water here.

All of what you mention in your first sentence, are all governed to some extent by the pre-existing values of the expert. Someone may be supremely adept at research, have sparkling intuition, the best of connections etc, and yet will still be guided by the views that they've already formed, especially if their views have been formed (as so many legal minds in the UK have) in Oxbridge and other "Establishment" institutions. Even if they haven't, they'll still carry the values learned during their broader education, as well as those absorbed during their training.

 

[Diamond]

Thanks for that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am stating precisely my interpretation.

If it is not as nailed to the wall as you would like it, then tough. I'm calling it how I see it.

If you believe that what you've stated, was stated precisely, then you have little idea what "precision" actually is.

 

[8ball]

If you believe that what you've stated, was stated precisely, then you have little idea what "precision" actually is.

Stating precisely rather than precisely stating.

 

[andysays]

I am stating precisely my interpretation.

If it is not as nailed to the wall as you would like it, then tough. I'm calling it how I see it.

Except that at times you appear to be claiming that your "as you see it" has more value than that of others' because of some vague claim to special/insider knowledge.

Truth is, you don't know any better than the rest of us.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thanks for that.

Thanks for taking time out from your important Euro-related legal work to thank me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Except that at times you appear to be claiming that your "as you see it" has more value than that of others' because of some vague claim to special/insider knowledge.

Truth is, you don't know any better than the rest of us.

A little knowledge being a dangerous thing, naturalising your own opinions (informed or otherwise) as the baseline for any debate (as Diamond has done with his appeals to authority) tends to lead to the belief that those opinions have more value than those who don't have that "little knowledge".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Classy

No war but the class(y) war.

 

[andysays]

A little knowledge being a dangerous thing, naturalising your own opinions (informed or otherwise) as the baseline for any debate (as Diamond has done with his appeals to authority) tends to lead to the belief that those opinions have more value than those who don't have that "little knowledge".

So next time I'm arguing with someone making appeals to authority, can I say that you agree with me?

 

[el-ahrairah]

You're prejudiced against the Shetlands because they don't allow donkeys, aren't you?

the shetlands don't allow donkeys?

i imagined myself running a donkey sanctuary in the shetlands. this changes everything.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you not think that this referendum has significantly increased potential support for a 'federal Britain'?

However I think that a Yes vote would more likely be the end of that, rather than the catalyst. A No vote and Devo Max would lead to more of 'why can't we have that', but independence is enough of a disconnect to make people give up on the idea.

I believe that the referendum has increased interest in the principle of secession, and in how secession might effect change in relations between states, but I'm not convinced that it's increased support for the idea of a properly-federal union of states, and by "properly-federal", I don't mean "federation according to the EU" or "federation according to the predicates of the political classes and neoliberalism", I mean federal as in "the people decide on federation, and the people decide what constitutes federation".
Yes, I am occasionally frighteningly-idealistic.

 

[mauvais]

I believe that the referendum has increased interest in the principle of secession, and in how secession might effect change in relations between states, but I'm not convinced that it's increased support for the idea of a properly-federal union of states, and by "properly-federal", I don't mean "federation according to the EU" or "federation according to the predicates of the political classes and neoliberalism", I mean federal as in "the people decide on federation, and the people decide what constitutes federation".
Yes, I am occasionally frighteningly-idealistic.

It's not a matter of secession. I think for say, 'The North', or Yorkshire, or Greater Manchester, or bits of the South West, or various other areas with some coherent identity, the whole debate and idea that the political system doesn't meaningfully represent them has been brought to the fore, and not only that regional independence of some form might actually matter a bit more now, it might be possible to have a change.

I don't know that federalism (and I'm thinking the German model) has or ever will crystallise as the political idea behind that sentiment, but it's never even been floated before, and what used to be at best a hope for some great 'move part of the BBC'-style moment of Westminster benevolence might well turn into a workable movement.

 

[Diamond]

The irony is that while there is a drive towards decentralisation and localism, there is also a desire to remain part of the wider EU.

You can't have it both ways - if you are merely replacing Westminster with Brussels, what's the point?

 

[ddraig]

The irony is that while there is a drive towards decentralisation and localism, there is also a desire to remain part of the wider EU.

You can't have it both ways - if you are merely replacing Westminster with Brussels, what's the point?

why not have it both ways? why would you want to stop this?

 

[Diamond]

why not have it both ways? why would you want to stop this?

Because it is not possible. It's not a question of me wanting to stop this.

Have you seen how politics has played out in Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, France, Greece and even Germany the last few years?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The irony is that while there is a drive towards decentralisation and localism, there is also a desire to remain part of the wider EU.

You can't have it both ways - if you are merely replacing Westminster with Brussels, what's the point?

You can have it both ways. It's possible to be a part of several layers of state, with as many powers as possible devolved as far down the ladder as possible.

That's not a defence of the EU as currently constituted - but the principle can stand.

I would think that any irony here is that Scotland already has more layers than the rest of the UK, with more powers devolved downwards.

 

[Theisticle]

This is interesting, economic reality versus nationalist sentiment

http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...on-can-tell-us-about-the-scottish-referendum/

 

[Andrew Hertford]

And who knows, such barriers might create a veritable kristallnacht of pogroms of Scots in England, and Englanders in Scotland!

Still sulking because years ago I compared nazis to nazis?

Get over it son.

 

[DotCommunist]

tbf you compared smashed bank windows a la black block in london to kristelnacht

 

[frogwoman]

which Nazis were on the student protest?

 

[19sixtysix]

This is interesting, economic reality versus nationalist sentiment

http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...on-can-tell-us-about-the-scottish-referendum/

He's an economist. He only sees money. Money is just a system to help us do stuff nothing else. It is not the reason to live our lives. Living our lives better and happier is what the referendum is about.

 

[ddraig]

tbf you compared smashed bank windows a la black block in london to kristelnacht

bwhahahahahahahaaaaaaaa
forgotten that one thanks for reminder

 

[nino_savatte]

The 'No' campaign is predicated on the preservation of the status quo, therefore it is reactionary and has inevitably attracted all manner of reactionaries. Aside from the Orangemen, there have been Loyalists giving Nazi salutes and attacking 'Yes' stalls - according to a video someone posted on Facebook.

At the top of Edinburgh's Abbeymount, where Orange Order marchers congregated at the end of their parade on Saturday, a group of policemen were making their considered assessment of the morning's events: "Some arseholes, but in general a major success".

It is not clear whether they were referring specifically to a group of Britain First neo-Nazis who were making their presence felt by the Scottish parliament building. But the Order's 15,000-strong show of visceral pro-union strength through Scotland's capital was broadly good-natured, though fiercely so.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...er-march-edinburgh-scottish-independence-vote

In the meantime, check out this collection of headbangers. The bloke nearest to the camera shouts "Engerland, Engerland, Engerland". They look like, to use Tony Montana's words, "fucking mummies".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Still sulking because years ago I compared nazis to nazis?

I'm not "sulking", I'm just still amazed that anyone who professes to have an ounce of political sense in their head could possibly compare something so un-kristallnachtlike with kristallnacht. Stupidity on the scale of yours sticks in the mind long after it's been perpetrated.

Get over it son.

"Son"?
One thing my dad doesn't do is compare a handful of broken windows with the 7,000-plus businesses that were destroyed, or the 1,100-plus synagogues that were devestated on kristallnacht. He's got this thing (even though he's a Norwich City supporter, and the two don't at first seem compatible) called "a sense of perspective".

You're an idiot, a patronising idiot who didn't have the balls to own up to making a fatuous comparison. Being reminded of that fatuous comparison seems the right "punishment" for someone so bollockless.

 

[frogwoman]

Lets also not forget that krystallnacht was organised by a state whereas the broken windows on the student protest were organise by er...nobody.