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Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

What’s interesting to me about the blm movement’s is they are largely young people, and mostly working class? I guess my son isn’t working class as I have been to uni and have a professional job plus I own our ex council house, but his mates certainly are (girlfriend prob not as her Dad owns his own shop fitting set up). Anyway, the point is that none of them have ever been involved in politics before, there was much pisstaking about the climate strikes (how DARE you) etc and certainly not political marches. Obviously this affects them directly (direct racial abuse), but their understanding of institutional racism (poorer opportunity to get a job- white vs black names- more likely to get stopped, go to prison, one of their Dads is in prison- more likely to go to their kind of school- more likely to die of covid etc etc) was very thought through.

I guess that made me think I might of been wrong in my distrust of identity politics as divisive and exclusionary?

I think you use 'class' to mean something very different from the majority of people in this thread. Most here use it with reference to the means of production i.e. whether or not you have to sell your labour power to live.

Recognising that, in the present situation (i.e. capitalism) black workers face additional challenges, and showing solidarity, isn't identity politics per se.
 
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What’s interesting to me about the blm movement’s is they are largely young people, and mostly working class? I guess my son isn’t working class as I have been to uni and have a professional job plus I own our ex council house, but his mates certainly are (girlfriend prob not as her Dad owns his own shop fitting set up). Anyway, the point is that none of them have ever been involved in politics before, there was much pisstaking about the climate strikes (how DARE you) etc and certainly not political marches. Obviously this affects them directly (direct racial abuse), but their understanding of institutional racism (poorer opportunity to get a job- white vs black names- more likely to get stopped, go to prison, one of their Dads is in prison- more likely to go to their kind of school- more likely to die of covid etc etc) was very thought through.

I guess that made me think I might of been wrong in my distrust of identity politics as divisive and exclusionary?

Quite a lot to be said about class and identity politics after reading that post!

Not sure I'll get round to it but the TL;DR version is I think you're working class, and that not all struggles around sex/race/etc are identity politics. Your kids and their friends sound ace btw, you should be dead proud!
 
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Not sure where to put this so i'll put it on a few threads - fair bit of potentially useful stuff:

We can’t change the world on our own, but we are willing to put expertise at the fingertips of those that share our desire to do so. Knowledge drives progress and one modest action we are taking is opening up validated scholarly content on racism and its prevention, on social and economic justice, on related educational resources and on their effects on society as a whole.

The more we know, the more effectively we can act.

We have curated some of our relevant books and journals content in this area – much of it free to view or open access – and our editorial teams will continue to collaborate with scholars and experts to
organize and publish an expanded reading list on this microsite.
 
In a disturbing and somewhat baffling turn of events, a DSA political education session featuring one of the nation’s most prominent Marxist intellectuals has been cancelled after coming under fire for “class reductionism” by internal critics. Class Unity condemns in the strongest terms the successful deplatforming of a lifelong socialist by unprincipled and anti-Marxist elements within the organization. We hope that this fiasco makes clear to all Marxists and to all individuals committed to open and honest debate within DSA that if we do not work together to uphold shared norms of free ideological struggle the organization will lose all capacity for it.

 
FFS that is ludicrous.

This seems to be the original letter calling for the cancellation, (google doc warning)
Terrible piece, as that class unity piece says not only is the analysis terrible but there seem to be some serious misreadings, I mean
When Reed says, “It cannot be stressed enough that race is not a natural category; it is a fiction, an entirely made-up idea with no grounding outside of abstract and arbitrary taxonomies—elaborate just-so stories—of human difference. Black people, therefore, cannot be disproportionately vulnerable as a generic category of racial taxonomy.” Who is claiming that Black people are uniquely vulnerable to COVID 19 due to genetic or “natural category”?
 
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I mean, how can you engage seriously with people who write stuff like this?


What Reed and other class reductionists continue to misunderstand or overlook is that race isn't bad in and of itself. Racism is bad and needs to be destroyed. That's an important distinction that class reductionists are continually intent on denying. The greatest flaw in Reed's logic is the idea that racism is a byproduct of capitalism. Global capitalism has historically relied on the dehumanization of black and indigenous peoples for cheap, expendable, precarious labor. The capitalist economy is not an equalizer, it needs racism to exploit, dominate, and oppress the working class. Capitalism needs racism to break ties of solidarity among workers and those who depend on workers.
 
This is from introduction to Post Capitalist Desire , Final Lectures of Mark Fisher -
"As individuals squabble over who has the most privilege on Twitter, for instance, turning on each other, the true enemy — capitalism itself — is left completely off the hook.
It was Mark Fisher’s hope that these newly raised and yet fragmented forms of consciousness, proliferating under so-called “identity politics”, could still find common ground that included a previously disarticulated class consciousness — a collective consciousness that builds an articulated awareness of minority struggles in order to better grasp the totality of the system at large: capitalism."
 
This is from introduction to Post Capitalist Desire , Final Lectures of Mark Fisher -
That sounds like an interesting book, I'd like to know more about he means by 'post capitalist desire'.
 
Yep another +1 here.
I liked this sentence
A common humanity: the phrase seems quaint, anachronistic, even as I type it. But I think the restoration of the dignity and prestige of the idea is one of the tasks of the contemporary left.
I've long felt that one of the places where working class activity can be strengthened is to start re-buliding a humanism. Not just on identity politics issues but also, say, environmental issues, where too much politics comes from an almost anti-humanist perspective.
 
Superb article on debates around cultural appropriation. Rich, thoughtful and deeply useful.



Its good, but i think it misses some of the more complicated cases and issues of appropriation. The Mexican food stand one sounds ridiculous, the stuff about novels is well explored, agree with all of that, - in fact usually when this stuff makes a headline its over something I consider ridiculous.

But there are times when it gets a bit more complex. For example Elvis Presley is mentioned. I think the issue with Elvis is that whilst black music at the time was ghettoised as race records etc, with Elvis it was repackaged, marketed, and cashed in on for a "mainstream" white audience. The US music world continues to have an awkward, racialised, segregated relationship with music, particularly at the business end.

Taking a musical trend that's "too black" and sticking a doe eyed white boy or girl, repackaging it, and selling it aggressively happens to this day. Also decisions about who to sign and promote in general. At its crudest that does feel 'offensive', though I'm not sure cultural "appropriation" is the best word for it - maybe cultural "exploitation" (for profit) is more accurate. Its complex to unpick though, as the national context/history within which these things happen is crucial.

There was an interesting case this summer with notting hill carnival where Adele got her hair braided a certain (Zulu) way and dressed up in a Jamaican flag outfit. US Twitter attacked her as a cultural appropriator - black London Twitter told US Twitter they didnt understand London carnival culture, and loved that Adele was celebrating carribean and african culture (i think importantly not for a profit motive).

Which shows that this isnt happening in a vacuum - systemic/historic/structural inequalities change how people react to these incidents - and obviously the USA is a very specific case. The author of that article is a white Scottish novelist I gather.

This leads in to a case like the native american headdresses, particularly worn by fashion models. Again, within the context of the USA it is historicaly bad taste, and also probably falls in to the cultural-financial-exploitation bracket.

With that in mind even the ridiculous Mexican food stand isn't totally straightforward. Mexicans are broadly second class citizens in the US. If a couple of middle class white women, with better access to capital, start a business with a gentrifying faux-authentic presentation, it's easy to imagine why people might get defensive. But in cases like this i think its less to do with issues of culture than it is to do with underlying racialised class and economic inequalities.... Or another way of looking at it is that in a hyper capitalist racist state like the US, monetising culture becomes one of the few ways racially marginalised people can take part in the economy, and cultural appropriation becomes another level of suppression and exploitation.
 
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Culture has been the focus of my study this year, one focus being on the differences between cross-cultural and sociocultural approaches. It strikes me that cultural appropriation belongs to a cross-cultural mindset — that culture is something that exists “out there”, overlaid onto our selves. It doesn’t stand well with the more recent movement towards sociocultural approach of culture being part of the mind’s framework through which experience is mediated (I say recent but this is also the West rediscovering Vyrgotsky).

Interested in any views about this from those who have rather more experience in it than me?
 
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Superb article on debates around cultural appropriation. Rich, thoughtful and deeply useful.


I think there's an essential lack of perspective here.

For me these defences against charges of appropriation always seem to focus on the potential loss of freedom of expression, rather than seeking to truly understand the perspective of the cultural originators.

The crime of cultural expression is not that people are drawing inspiration from new places - that's always been a wonderful thing (obviously); it's that often times the originators simply have not had the opportunity to profit from, or sometimes even celebrate that culture themselves in the wider society.

The pain is not that White America discovered, and fell in love with rhythm and blues; the pain is that so many Black writers and musicians were left penniless and discarded in its wake.

Now I happen to think that cussing out White women who choose to wear cornrows is a terrible shame - a nearside targeting of people who actually want to engage and participate in a culture they admire. But I get the pain. It goes a bit like this I imagine - I get bombarded with images of White beauty from the first steps of childhood, held up against it, judged by it, struggle with it, imitate it. Finally I find a way to remove myself from that loop of deliberate societal racist uglification by creating my own styles, my own aesthetics, and by honouring my own natural beauty. And then you - casually take it on - while still benefiting from all of the 'White beauty' prejudices and access that you had bestowed on you in the first place!

That's an example of a charge of 'cultural appropriation' that I'm not 100% behind, but I can still fully understand why it provokes such a powerful response.

This stuff is no joke. The article talks about people being told to 'stay in their lane', and then brings up Dana Schutz. It would benefit from making reference to the fact that the Till killing was a dark 'artwork' itself - a deliberate signalling to Black Men in particular to 'stay in their lane', through the medium of murder and mutilation. The pain of that event for Black people worldwide is clearly unfathomable to many in the wider society. I'm forced to ask - if a gentile artist decided to include gruesome depictions of holocaust victims in their work, do you think it would deserve to stand unchallenged?
That's the kind of measure of emotional response that Black people around the world have towards the Emmett Till murder. In my opinion it was a clumsy intervention by Ms Schutz.

The article orbits around the pain felt by artists suddenly having to curtail their instincts and hem in their expression, but falls short in recognising the depth and breadth of pain felt by the donor communities.

You end up in some pretty ludicrous places - appropriation as a bedrock of American cultural development - well, yes, but as if that has led to an enlightened society!

Indeed, for all their traditional antagonisms and obvious differences, the so-called black and so-called white people of the United States resemble nobody else in the world so much as they resemble each other.
Well, maybe, if you conveniently completely ignore the massive economic and stakeholder differences :rolleyes:.

The last part of the article is actually the part I find most objectionable. A kind of well-we're-all-at-it-anyway dismissal of super-exploitation as an excusable by-product of living in a capitalist society. There are much worse things going on it says - textile workers, union-busting, etc.

No. Something is either an exploitative practice or it isn't (though of course there always needs to be room to argue the toss). The whataboutery that follows does nothing to dilute it. There is an explicit recognition in the article that inequality and power imbalance are being leveraged in many of these cultural transactions. Not only is this the kind of thing that should alert socialist concerns anyway, it is really disturbing to see a culture emerge on the left to further try to negate and silence these concerns. Where people feel exploited it's vital that voices are at the very least seriously considered. It's a shame that even needs to be reiterated.

I'll go a little further and say that this kind of perspective blindness litters a lot of the thinking around identity politics for me. It's always about deferring our immediate needs in the wake of some imagined greater good. In the meantime, the people making the critical analysis already have access to many of the things we are desperately trying to organise for.

Like the quoted Lauren Michele Jackson (whose snippets seem to make the most sense to me) says:

“Appropriation is everywhere, and is also inevitable. . . .

But that doesn't mean it is without responsibility or a duty of awareness.
 
The ‘Giving people responsibility bit’ sounds a bit recovery model.

More transparency in the NHS and social care would be welcome 8DA3A719-71F3-47EE-9831-FF409E25CB7E.jpeg
 
Truss is all about a return to 'old values'. 3 R's type stuff. Nothing really interesting about it. I can't believe any on here would take any cues from her utterances, even if they were anti-IP.
 
It’s not about ‘taking cues’. It’s about trying to understand how politics is shifting and how best to respond to that. Her talking points are highly unlikely to result in any positive change, but even then it’s better to know what’s going on surely?
 
It’s not about ‘taking cues’. It’s about trying to understand how politics is shifting and how best to respond to that. Her talking points are highly unlikely to result in any positive change, but even then it’s better to know what’s going on surely?
Fair enough. It seems to me to tie in quite neatly with her 'people should be studying maths not media studies' back-to-basics philosophy. Calls to mind Randian notions of individual freedom being the real kindness and ideas of engineering equality being the real cruelty, etc. I don't think there's much (new) on show.
 
Truss today being called out for her record on trade advisor appointments, which thus far have been 95% white, and 75% male. When she talks about 'choice, opportunity, individual humanity', etc. what she really means in practice is more of the same old status quo, and if you're not already part of the privileged set then you've got no chance.


Now I know that her attack on identity politics is coming from an abruptly different angle from someone like, say, Kenan Malik, but the core element of my contention is on display here.

I broadly agree that the highest goal of political action and understanding should be directed at dismantling the system that maintains inequality in the first place.

But where I think people (who totally oppose IP wherever it emerges) are being short-sighted is in under-valuing the urgent need that people have to come together and fight the immediate inequalities that face them, and the facilitating of insight and motivation that peer solidarity provides towards that.

Of course, it would be ideal if all of these 'micro-struggles' (not so micro for the people involved of course!) could always take place within the context a of wider class movement. But - reality check - similar to Truss offering 'dignity' while serving up exclusion, I've experienced marginalised groups having to organise their own way of fighting back, their own way of discussing things, their own way of identifying discrimination, because there isn't (and can't be) the same level of insight or direction from the 'concerned left'.

I can only talk as a Black person that has moved lightly in and out of involvement with politics over the years, but I've seen enough to be sure that - minority concerns often get side-lined or trivialised in political meetings and events; many right-on people have no idea how much racism they have internalised and are carrying with them (I can only imagine that is true of other 'isms' too); similar problems of societal privilege and hierarchies are, naturally, intact in many left forums.

If there was a similar level of enthusiasm for taking up, unprompted, struggles at the core of black communities, or that were say, immediately affecting women, as there is for negating the brands of politics that aim to directly empower and voice them, then I'd be much more convinced. But I'm really not.
 
Vygotsky - scaffolding and the ZPD are key themes in language teaching. He's always been in fashion at least in that little niche. Interesting to see him pop up here.
I’m curious — when you say “always”, do you genuinely mean ever since Vyrgotsky wrote about it in the 1930s? Or does it date from the 1970s, which is when a bunch of his works were translated into English and started to gain traction in the West? He got quite popular by the late 1970s and had a big influence through the 80s and 90s. (Then he faded a bit out of fashion but got really popular again in another “rediscovery”, which is his “revisionist revolution” that began in about 2010)
 
I’m curious — when you say “always”, do you genuinely mean ever since Vyrgotsky wrote about it in the 1930s? Or does it date from the 1970s, which is when a bunch of his works were translated into English and started to gain traction in the West? He got quite popular by the late 1970s and had a big influence through the 80s and 90s. (Then he faded a bit out of fashion but got really popular again in another “rediscovery”, which is his “revisionist revolution” that began in about 2010)

Excuse me. I meant, Always in my time in the field. If you look at any books for DELTA-level EFL materials for teachers published from the early-mid 2000s the ZPD is invariably mentioned, so definitely pre-2010. When I look through academic papers for EFL, I've definitely seen regular references to him from way before 2010 as well. I'll have to look at dates, but I've got a feeling that when European language teaching shifted to CLT in the 70s, his influence will have grown as the new emphasis on communication matches his ideas about the ZPD. If you're saying a lot of his work was translated then that makes sense.

Very closely linked to the ZPD is the idea of 'scaffolding' for learner support, which came about in the 60s, so I'd say one way or another, his influence on modern language teaching stretches back 50 years in one way or another.
 
I feel like valuable opportunities are missed when grassroots voices and protests are dismissed because they contain elements that align with liberal outcomes. Up and down the country (as a consequence of BLM) ideas like 'Marxism' and 'defund the police' are being discussed on footy forums, etc. For a lot of young people particularly this will be the first time they've even seen these notions considered to any serious degree. To just turn your nose up at it all seems like a big misstep. I think that the energy and thinking that leads people to stand up for injustices they are directly reeling from can (and often does) lead to a wider consciousness around structural oppression.
 
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