rekil
to menny cranks
Collett filth or keep talking filth? Curran isn't a veteran. Just an old crank and antisemite.
Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.
- Thread starter danny la rouge
- Start date
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Yeah meant ‘type’ rather than formal group. I thought Curran was ex services?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Operation harvest. Or so he'd have you believe.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Malik’s latest piece. His key argument is that the ““cultural turn” of recent years has encouraged people to repose political problems as issues of culture or identity. Rather than ask “What are the policy reasons for the lack of housing and stagnating wages?” or “What are the social roots of racism and what structural changes are required to combat it?”, we look to blame the Other, demand recognition for our particular identity and tussle over symbols”
www.theguardian.com
Culture wars risk blinding us to just how liberal we've become in the past decades | Kenan Malik
Britain appears to be fractious, divided. And yet the nation has never been more united in its social attitudes. What’s really going on?
Steel Icarus
we move
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Malik’s latest piece. His key argument is that the ““cultural turn” of recent years has encouraged people to repose political problems as issues of culture or identity. Rather than ask “What are the policy reasons for the lack of housing and stagnating wages?” or “What are the social roots of racism and what structural changes are required to combat it?”, we look to blame the Other, demand recognition for our particular identity and tussle over symbols”
Culture wars risk blinding us to just how liberal we've become in the past decades | Kenan Malik
Britain appears to be fractious, divided. And yet the nation has never been more united in its social attitudes. What’s really going on?
I agree with the thrust of that but I think he's wrong to group statues with rugby anthems. Different kinds of phenomena. In the case of the latter, it appears to be a top-down response based in many ways on confusion about what is now happening. In the case of the former, a broad-based, multi-ethnic group defied the law to carry out a highly public direct action. Bottom-up, no confusion as to why it needed to be done. Symbolism sure but a powerful and subversive act nonetheless that was spectacularly successful. A moment to savour.
While we of course shouldn't lose sight of the important structural issues, we also shouldn't forget to enjoy these small moments of victory.
I can't shake of the suspicion it's something a bit more sordid than that - an attempt to delegitimise the demands of BLM while performing a response. There is no chance that Swing Low Sweet Chariot will be banned, and reviewing it with this in mind is a ludicrous, ridiculous thing to do. It's only - and predictable - effect is to rile up fans, give opinion columnists something to get angry about, and make people who haven't been paying much attention think the whole movement must be a similar collection of ridiculous complaints.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Made this point on Twitter. The only reference I could find was some desperate article in the Independent. I had a conversation with two mates in the UK that are into rugby who are decent folk and they are adamant that the song started being sung at rugby in honour of Martin Offiah . Its a cackhanded top down response from the RFU . The song is one of my favourite by Paul Robeson.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Maybe. Or more ineptitude than consipracy? While this certainly hasn't been a demand from anyone in BLM from what I know, the issue of that song has come up before. I get the impression of people in high places feeling uncomfortable and an extent of do-something-itis. We shouldn't underestimate the levels of cluelessness in certain circles.
Ironically, I would have thought a big reason why that song was taken up is precisely because of the imperialist and jingoistic sentiments of the alternatives - rule britannia, great escape, etc that get sung at the football. At least they're not singing the national anthem.
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I wouldn't ever rule out ineptitude, but it's funny how all this top down ineptitude so perfectly assists those who want to turn the debate away from more material demands.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Don't think it's ineptitude or conspiracy, it's just that the terrain of struggle has changed into the cultural and symbolic rather than material and political, and this is following that trend?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes, and I get the point - that this is an effective way of undermining it and neutralising wider demands. It just seems more accidental than calculated to me - a bit of a panic from various people 'upstairs', whether sports administrators or tv producers. fwiw I think football has got it right. I was quite taken aback tbh when everyone, including the refs, took the knee right after kick-off. Symbolism does matter, I think, when it's symbolism of the right kind and coming from the right place - in the case of football, they took their lead from the players.
Right - and usually the blame for this is placed on the left-wing cultural warriors - I guess watching the events of the last few weeks has made me wonder how much they're truly to blame - a movement for material change has morphed into an argument about rugby songs, ancient sitcoms and statues - and that change has not really been because of any demands by protesters - it's been because of the responses of various institutions which have chosen things which a) don't really matter, and b) which they can probably expect widespread and angry support over.
And sure, lots of the left have got pulled into these mostly worthless debates, but it's really difficult not to: when your friends and relatives start complaining about the left-wing fascists coming for our comedies, it's really hard not to get drawn in... and so, the terrain of the struggle changes. And it's hard not to assume that's an intentional result of these kinds of institutional responses.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I agree with all that. The plop of the cheaply made, hollow statue of Colston into Bristol harbour was a joyous moment, though. No arguments, mind you, just action.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
he makes passing, vague, mention of social movements, but that is all. Like he makes passing, vague, mention of the need for structural change. But choose not to develop those comments. It happens far too often for that to just be a coincidence. In the video he says (23.54 or so), in so few words, that 'racism has been there since the late eighteenth century - because (acc to Strange Fruit, the only book of his I've read) of debates within amongst liberals despairing of making real change. Now that is clearly related to actual movements, but it is the intellectual debate he is interested in, not the movement itself. Plus it just ignores the previous couple of hundred years of justifying slave ownership through ideology.
He follows this line with his latest, rather bland, offering (we're not really going to have some cretin posting up each one telling us its a blinding insight, are we?). Apparently BLM has just turned into a discussion group about Statues and telly. Except it isn't really, not amongst the people doing the actual campaigning (with the exception of the very long running Rhodes Must Fall campaign). If he looked past the usual bland commentators and headlines he'd see calls from black workers demanding changes to their industries, for a full recognition of how racism has affected and continues to affect workers (and the wider world). About arguing why representation does matter, why it isn't good enough just to go 'man or woman doesn't matter, its values that count'. He'd see the demands for changes in our school curriculums and for justice for victims or racist policing. The fact he doesn't see any of these make it look rather like he is just looking for an excuse to turn against it.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
As I say above, I don't think this is really true beyond some newspaper stories. Statues and tv are a quick and easy 'fix' that could be a starting point or a complete dead end. I'm happy to see the back of most of them, but its our job to make sure that doesn't become the be all and end all.
A bit tangential to the discussion but have people from here been going to the blm protests if they are white? My eldest son has gone along twice, his two best mates are both black. I wondered about going today to show solidarity but hesitated as on the one hand want to show my support, on the other don’t want to be seen as woke and what do I as a middle aged white woman know about it- very little.
Exactly so.
We are the unruly mob, rough, shambling, multifarious and fucking angry... up against the wall, backs to the sea, we can only stand together.
Apols - I am truly thick when it comes to political theory but I know this in my bones.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You know that it's right. That's enough.
Here they are when much smaller (they all three tower over me now but still give me a kiss!). They’ve known each other technically since baby massage in the children’s centre, then primary, secondary etc.
and with his way out of his league beautiful but very down to earth girl at prom
They all met up today to go. We were talking about their experiences of “everyday” racism the other day and I was honestly horrified to hear from my son the pure extent of it, shit like them being started on at a bus stop in town just out of nowhere aged 14 (babies basically!) and all three of them having to get involved, right through to stuff I did know like how much it’s restricted their freedom (all of us mums are single mums, but only the other twos mums insisted they were in before 9pm in case they were stopped and searched). What upset me the most though was the young woman’s experience of racism by a playground monitor at primary school, who side eyed her and always treated her differently.
It’s totally different time and place to when I grew up. My kids experiences of race (even as white kids) has been totally different. I didn’t go today, but I might speak to one of the other mums about if she’s going and go with her. Anyone else been? Are they generally distanced and calm (in the uk)?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
It’s simple do the right thing . My son has all sort of reservations about identity politics but he knows right from wrong . He went on a protest in Manchester to show solidarity with his black mates. He said to me people need to stick together .
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
But your original claim was not just that Malik does not develop his argument enough with respect to material conditions (as I've already said something on which I'd agree). You went further and stated that "There is absolutely nothing about those politics being developed due to material conditions because [Malik] rejects that argument.", that is something fundamentally different and not a position that is supported by the evidence.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Osborne on radio 4 “this has been humanity’s finest hour”
some American “thats extremely privileged”
we did this to ourselves
some American “thats extremely privileged”
we did this to ourselves
brixtonscot
Well-Known Member
Well I never expected them to say "That's bollocks ya tory cunt" tbh.
What’s interesting to me about the blm movement’s is they are largely young people, and mostly working class? I guess my son isn’t working class as I have been to uni and have a professional job plus I own our ex council house, but his mates certainly are (girlfriend prob not as her Dad owns his own shop fitting set up). Anyway, the point is that none of them have ever been involved in politics before, there was much pisstaking about the climate strikes (how DARE you) etc and certainly not political marches. Obviously this affects them directly (direct racial abuse), but their understanding of institutional racism (poorer opportunity to get a job- white vs black names- more likely to get stopped, go to prison, one of their Dads is in prison- more likely to go to their kind of school- more likely to die of covid etc etc) was very thought through.
I guess that made me think I might of been wrong in my distrust of identity politics as divisive and exclusionary?
I guess that made me think I might of been wrong in my distrust of identity politics as divisive and exclusionary?
If it's not divisive and exclusionary it's not identity politics.
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